I'm at a lost at what to do! Selling Horse or not?

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SGElse

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I thought i would come on here for some advice, even if i just write out my thoughts it might help! I have owned my horse for 6 years and he is currently 10 years old. He was a challenging youngster but has come on incredibly however i do find he still pushes the boundaries regardless of how much ground work i do. He knows manners - he just chooses when to use them. For example, some times he will push you out the stable just because he chooses to do so, despite him doing ground work consistently. 80% of the time he is amazing but the other 20% is barely manageable.

Now ridden, he has so much potential, he is absolutely amazing, but he is incredibly spooky. I gave him winter off to help him mature and because its so hard with this rain. However this morning he pushed me out the stable again and worse than ever before.

I'm at a point where i dont know what to do. I love him with all my heart but as i get older i worry about risking my safety. He is a very particular horse and i worry if i was to sell him where he would end up. We do have an amazing relationship but i am at a point where i dont know how much more work i can put in and what the next stages are?

Do i try working him 6 days a week but then that brings the fun out of my hobby?
Do i try leaving him out at night but he will be by himself? He currently lives out 24/7 in summer but is in at night on winter (and he waits to come in!).
He is currently on calm and collected balancers and i have tried calmers such as buck off & valerian which dont work.
He had a vet work up and they saw no sign of lameness nor does he show any signs of ulcers.

I am stuck at what to do. I never thought i would sell him and the thought of it kills me but are we at a point where i dont know what else i can do. I have gone back to basics 100's of times. I dont know if i need to be reasonable given he has had winter of. But on the other hand, i have always had these kind of problems.

There is lots of hacking where i am and cant go in them as he is incredibly spooky and if i go with another horse he will set them off so no one wants to ride with us. But out on the road & at competitions he is foot perfect. I could also get on him and he be amazing - its just luck of the draw.

Any advice would be appreciated
 
I would find a professional, qualified equine behaviourist. If he is good 80% if the time and unpredictable 20% of the time, there will be something somewhere that 20% that you aren't seeing. I don't believe horses "choose" to behave badly for no reason, you just have to find the reason which might be a horse reason that makes no sense to us!

The behaviourist I work with (best decision I have ever made!!) is on the ABTC register, they have a "Find a Practitioner" page that should help.
 
smolmaus said:
I would find a professional, qualified equine behaviourist. If he is good 80% if the time and unpredictable 20% of the time, there will be something somewhere that 20% that you aren't seeing. I don't believe horses "choose" to behave badly for no reason, you just have to find the reason which might be a horse reason that makes no sense to us!

The behaviourist I work with (best decision I have ever made!!) is on the ABTC register, they have a "Find a Practitioner" page that should help.
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I will look into this! Do they tend to just come out and assess? How does it differ to horsemanship (as they usually assess and provide training)? Do they just give you tools to help?
 
I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time.

Have a look for Steve Young on youtube. He does a lot of work with pushy dangerous horses. He's easy to watch, and everything he says makes a lot of sense. His priority is always keeping everyone safe.

Good luck with your boy.
 
Why did he need time to mature if he's 10? What do you do when he barges out the stable? I think it's probably time for some tough love. I'd open the door and stand there with a schooling whip ready to use before he seriously injures you or someone else. No one is going to want a big rude horse so you're going to need to fix the problem if you want to sell him anyway.
 
IrishMilo said:
Why did he need time to mature if he's 10? What do you do when he barges out the stable? I think it's probably time for some tough love. I'd open the door and stand there with a schooling whip ready to use before he seriously injures you or someone else. No one is going to want a big rude horse so you're going to need to fix the problem if you want to sell him anyway.
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When i say mature i mean just give him time to rest mentally to see if it helped (and with all the rain it made life easier!). When he pushed me out the stable, i walked him back in and out of the stable a few times and then stood their with a whip ensuring he only came out on command. I understand tough love is required and my point is, i give him tough love and he never gets away with anything, but he will still have these moments.
 
Some horses need more mental stimulation than others and 80% g behaving like you want him to is more than many other owners experience. Some calmers can actually increase spookiness, mine can’t have Magic products. I would reduce hard feed to minimum and perhaps get a professional rider to put him through his paces in school and out hacking to get their view. Don’t necessarily increase work which increases fitness as that might work against you but exercises such as practised in working equitation might tire him mentally and keep him listening to you.
 
SGElse said:
I will look into this! Do they tend to just come out and assess? How does it differ to horsemanship (as they usually assess and provide training)? Do they just give you tools to help?
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Yes they will generally come out in person and (hopefully) witness the behaviour and then provide guidance on why the behaviour is occurring and what steps can be taken to make changes. It is less about training the horse and more about investigating what the horse is experiencing to cause the behaviour. In my experience anyway.

Less "pop the halter to stop him barging through the door" and more "how do we help him not need to barge out the door". Looking to solve problems not just prevent poor behaviour.
 
I think it is more important to consider why he is rushing out of the stable than how you are going to fix it, because the cause will probably lead to the solution.
Does he want into the stable nicely, is the door narrow/ does he have to turn straight after coming out? Has he bashed his hip on it at some point, even if that was his own fault because he was rushing out?
 
TheMule said:
I think it is more important to consider why he is rushing out of the stable than how you are going to fix it, because the cause will probably lead to the solution.
Does he want into the stable nicely, is the door narrow/ does he have to turn straight after coming out? Has he bashed his hip on it at some point, even if that was his own fault because he was rushing out?
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I think its a good question! I'm not aware anything has happened, he has been fine all week, walked in and out the same as he always does but then today this happened. I do always feel he doesn't feel 'safe' in his stable as when he is unsure on something he has to walk around, and when he walks he is so much calmer. That said, he has been in the same routine for 4 months now and i wonder if i am overthinking this one incident, but he has always been highly strung and quick to react so.
 
Do you have an instructor/trainer you work with?

On the groundwork thing - I wonder if there's a 'work smarter not harder' thing that needs to happen?

I'm thinking of someone who all they do with their horse is groundwork, and they enjoy doing this together. But will it walk nicely through the gate to the field with her? No. Does it 'know' how to do this? Yes, and will do so for others handling him. Talking to her was interesting because she's kind of resigned herself to expect that's what he will do. Whereas the others handling him fully expect they are going to go through that gate and not be dragged around.

I'm not saying it's the same situation here, more that it seems groundwork doesn't necessarily automatically translate over to day to day handing. And some horses are more forgiving of when we're not quite 'on it' than others.
 
SGElse said:
When i say mature i mean just give him time to rest mentally to see if it helped (and with all the rain it made life easier!). When he pushed me out the stable, i walked him back in and out of the stable a few times and then stood their with a whip ensuring he only came out on command. I understand tough love is required and my point is, i give him tough love and he never gets away with anything, but he will still have these moments.
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Tbh, the amount of ‘work’ he was getting isn’t much for a big, adult riding horse, and the fact that he now isn’t doing anything at all probably isn’t helping.
The weather’s been rough, appreciate you don’t feel much like going out on your own, but is there anyone else who would like to ride him for you? A reactive horse isn’t much fun to hack (altho a huge bonus yours is good on the roads!) but majority of horses become considerably less reactive if they are hacked consistently and demandingly, as in, for considerably longer than you seem to have been doing.
It sounds more like he is pis£ed off with being bored, including bored with having spent time in the stable - ‘let’s get back out!’ - than is at all frightened of entering it, and he’s obviously happy to return there at night.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
Do you have an instructor/trainer you work with?

On the groundwork thing - I wonder if there's a 'work smarter not harder' thing that needs to happen?

I'm thinking of someone who all they do with their horse is groundwork, and they enjoy doing this together. But will it walk nicely through the gate to the field with her? No. Does it 'know' how to do this? Yes, and will do so for others handling him. Talking to her was interesting because she's kind of resigned herself to expect that's what he will do. Whereas the others handling him fully expect they are going to go through that gate and not be dragged around.

I'm not saying it's the same situation here, more that it seems groundwork doesn't necessarily automatically translate over to day to day handing. And some horses are more forgiving of when we're not quite 'on it' than others.
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Yes my instructor is amazing and she is very much of the opinion that he needs to be worked (hard), and its my way not his but as i say, hes had time off so i haven't had her for a while. The problem i have is he actually has impeccable manners - comes to commands, backs up to command, will move from no pressure, will back up as soon as you walk into the stable/stand to be rugged. He knows the expectations as i have been hot on them, but no matter what i do, i cannot seems to stop these moments he has! Admittedly the moments are not consistent but when he has them, its serious!!
 
Exasperated said:
Tbh, the amount of ‘work’ he was getting isn’t much for a big, adult riding horse, and the fact that he now isn’t doing anything at all probably isn’t helping.
The weather’s been rough, appreciate you don’t feel much like going out on your own, but is there anyone else who would like to ride him for you? A reactive horse isn’t much fun to hack (altho a huge bonus yours is good on the roads!) but majority of horses become considerably less reactive if they are hacked consistently and demandingly, as in, for considerably longer than you seem to have been doing.
It sounds more like he is pis£ed off with being bored, including bored with having spent time in the stable - ‘let’s get back out!’ - than is at all frightened of entering it, and he’s obviously happy to return there at night.
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I think that's a very fair comment, especially about him being bored and i know the work is not very hard for an adult horse. Maybe i try him hacking for longer and doing more purposeful work and see how it goes. It just starts to feel like a job than a hobby at that point, but i suppose i either commit to that or sell him.
 
SGElse said:
Yes my instructor is amazing and she is very much of the opinion that he needs to be worked (hard), and its my way not his but as i say, hes had time off so i haven't had her for a while. The problem i have is he actually has impeccable manners - comes to commands, backs up to command, will move from no pressure, will back up as soon as you walk into the stable/stand to be rugged. He knows the expectations as i have been hot on them, but no matter what i do, i cannot seems to stop these moments he has! Admittedly the moments are not consistent but when he has them, its serious!!
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In this case, a change of approach is needed. If what you were doing now was going to work it would probably have worked already. Adding more of the same "work" is not likely to vastly change the result.
 
SGElse said:
I think that's a very fair comment, especially about him being bored and i know the work is not very hard for an adult horse. Maybe i try him hacking for longer and doing more purposeful work and see how it goes. It just starts to feel like a job than a hobby at that point, but i suppose i either commit to that or sell him.
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Hopefully, weather will improve as spring arrives, plus you’ll be able to turn him out for longer, too.
I think you’re more likely to enjoy riding him as he settles in to work (he would become fitter, but be less likely to be as impetuous to handle once he knows that he will routinely be expected to exert himself), and probably find that others are happier to ride with you. But if you really feel that it’s all getting a bit much - a forward-going horse that is occupied by his work, would be easier to sell on.
 
F&B said:
I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time.

Have a look for Steve Young on youtube. He does a lot of work with pushy dangerous horses. He's easy to watch, and everything he says makes a lot of sense. His priority is always keeping everyone safe.

Good luck with your boy.
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I was also going to suggest this. He does waffle on a bit but his horsemanship is easy to understand, very black and white. It may be worth getting him out for a visit, I'm not sure what he charges.
 
Midlifecrisis said:
Some horses need more mental stimulation than others and 80% g behaving like you want him to is more than many other owners experience. Some calmers can actually increase spookiness, mine can’t have Magic products. I would reduce hard feed to minimum and perhaps get a professional rider to put him through his paces in school and out hacking to get their view. Don’t necessarily increase work which increases fitness as that might work against you but exercises such as practised in working equitation might tire him mentally and keep him listening to you.
Click to expand...
I agree with the making them worse part. I’ve known a few go the other way with calming stuff.

What are you feeding him OP? Could it be something in his feed that’s making him a bit explosive?
 
I'm interested in what this 20% 'barely manageable' bit looks like? Is this really a horse which would be tricky to sell? Is 80:20 a bad ratio? (Genuine questions, I have no idea!)

I get there is the spookiness in some hacking settings but not all, and the example of barging out the stable 'sometimes' (how often is that?) with the most recent time being when the horse is not in any work and with recognition that it doesn't massively love being in the stable at the best of times.
 
Mine is an idiot out of work, pretty reasonable when in a decent amount of hard work. If I give him time off the yard staff complain about his behaviour :oops: He just becomes rude, stupid to come in from the field, bucks in his stable etc.

I’ve just accepted it’s who he is, it does make it a chore sometimes but I love him and I know what he needs to stay sane, he just has a lot of nervous energy that needs channeling into something productive. He’s still a spooky idiot but again, it’s who he is.

I’m not sure if that’s terribly helpful sorry other than you may have to accept who he is and if it’s not the challenge you want, there’s no shame in selling and having something that’s happy to be pulled out the field as and when. As you say, it’s supposed to be an enjoyable hobby not another job.
 
AmyMay Again said:
Can't you give him more hacking and less ground work? Ie. Just work him?
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This sounds a lot nearer the mark: horse has surplus energy to burn, also, his manners and ‘groundwork’ are described as “impeccable” much of the time.
Therefore, going over and over ‘groundwork’ must be incredibly frustrating for him, and certainly not using up any of that energy at all.
A total of 1.75 hours per week ridden work (when that was even happening, which it currently isn’t anyway) is serious under-occupation for any sound riding animal, and bouts of impulsive behaviour fully understandable in that context.
The instructor has advised the horse needs to be worked, but he is having the winter off!
If riding more than that is a chore for OP, and there is no one else to take him out for some decent, longer rides, they probably aren’t ever going to be suited or happy - if their needs are incompatible, would both be better with different partners.
He actually sounds like a really nice horse, hope OP gets him fixed up more suitably.
 
No harm in looking - the right home might be there.

Examples from my experience:
- Chestnut mare, spooky as anything, previous owners terrified of her. Got her going and took her out but she just didn’t like anything we wanted to do. Didn’t want to hack or do dressage and wasn’t really built to jump. Got her much less spooky with time but still she wasn’t settled like she should have been. Had the vet out to triple check all over but nothing there. In the end, she found a new home and calling as a games pony for a small adult. She was so very very happy when I went to visit her. It was absolutely the right thing to do.

- Grey mare. Hates winter, sweet in summer but didn’t like the two people in our family who could school her (my son and I) and could be a little bit much for my daughter. A friend sadly lost her horse and was really heartbroken. I know she and this mare adore each other so offered to send her to my friend. Two happy souls making each other smile every day ensued. My friend is now bubbly and happy again and the pony is content.

And some have come here and succeeded where they couldn’t before - different environment, equine friends, handling style. Sometimes they just need to be in the right place for them.
 
PSD said:
I agree with the making them worse part. I’ve known a few go the other way with calming stuff.

What are you feeding him OP? Could it be something in his feed that’s making him a bit explosive?
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Yes just on half a scoop of allen & page cool and collected with some chaff :)
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I'm interested in what this 20% 'barely manageable' bit looks like? Is this really a horse which would be tricky to sell? Is 80:20 a bad ratio? (Genuine questions, I have no idea!)

I get there is the spookiness in some hacking settings but not all, and the example of barging out the stable 'sometimes' (how often is that?) with the most recent time being when the horse is not in any work and with recognition that it doesn't massively love being in the stable at the best of times.
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And i think thats maybe what i need to remember. Yesterday was tough but i need to think about the current circumstances!
 
KikiDee said:
Mine is an idiot out of work, pretty reasonable when in a decent amount of hard work. If I give him time off the yard staff complain about his behaviour :oops: He just becomes rude, stupid to come in from the field, bucks in his stable etc.

I’ve just accepted it’s who he is, it does make it a chore sometimes but I love him and I know what he needs to stay sane, he just has a lot of nervous energy that needs channeling into something productive. He’s still a spooky idiot but again, it’s who he is.

I’m not sure if that’s terribly helpful sorry other than you may have to accept who he is and if it’s not the challenge you want, there’s no shame in selling and having something that’s happy to be pulled out the field as and when. As you say, it’s supposed to be an enjoyable hobby not another job.
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I absolutely love this outlook! Everyone that meets him says he has amazing character with so much potential and its one of the things i love about him! I genuinely dont beleive selling him would transform him as i know him inside and out (including when hes talking the mick!). I think i just need to accept i will have tough days and unfortunately, maybe i made the wrong call thinking a break would be better for him (although he has been amazingly calm up until this week!). I'm not convinced i would love something thats so easy or placid so i need to just remember its not the end of the world when he misbehaves every now and then!
 
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