I'm never feeding large amounts of Alfa EVER again!!

Firewell

Firewell

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I had a horrific realisation last night.. I think I contributed to my late mares death :( :( and i'm pretty sure it was by feeding her alfa.

My late mare was always prone to colic around spring and autumn when the flush of grass came through. I assumed it was due to the high sugar content in the grass but I now think it was also due to the protein levels... She would get a very big 'grass' belly that no matter what I fed I couldnt get rid of.

She would look amazing in winter when there was no goodness in the grass. I would feed her ablib haylage (the fibrous kind) and a scoop of high oil/low starch feed and she looked great and felt great. Then spring would come, her stomach would swell up and the problems started.

When she got sick the final year for some reason I had started feeling her Alfa that summer, Alfa Oil and a balancer.... I don't know why, a feed company rep came round mentioned how my feed was made with 'waste' products and suggested I tried an alfa based diet and it sounded fab so I changed.

That autumn she got the worst colic ever and was hositalised (by the way I had her in a starve paddock so she was getting less grass but feeding hay to keep weight on but I was feeding 2 small buckets of alfa oil as well). The vets did lots of tests and they found lots of fluid in her belly and protein in her wee but nothing else... They told me to UP the alfa as it was good for conditioning and protein to build muscle (even though she clearly had an excess of protein or wouldnt be weeing it out?), plus oil and speedie beet.

This I did, she was getting 5 stubbs scoops a day of alfa! A couple weeks later she coliced again, was operated on and died. The vet did say that her digestive system was a mess with adhesions years old and he said old worm damage from a foal could have caused her to have a weak digestive system.

However looking at research on the internet an excess of protein causes fluid in the belly and that it passes out as waste. I can't believe it :(. She would be so well over the winter and then so sick in the spring (april/may) and I cant believe I made it worse by taxing her system with the one thing it really couldn't cope with. I KNEW the alfa wasn't helping and I should have listened to my instincts not other people.

On top of this my old horse who never ever had any digestive problems at all his whole life (in the family from 7yrs to 26yrs), got really bad azotoria when he was 20 because I changed his feed to Build up mix and buckets of alfalfa.... once he went back to his old diet he was fine.. He was fed his whole life with mollassed chaff, mollassed sugar beet, pony nuts and oats and not a dicky bird, I come along with all the fancy alfa and mix and he got sick :(.

I was feeding current horse buckets of alfa a oil over the winter and kept wondering why he was scouring, cribbing and his skin was so scurfy and itchy!! He was also getting quite spooky. I cut the alfa right down by a 3rd and he was 100% happier and back to his lovely self and no more runny poo's.

Numerous people say that excess proetin doesn't make any difference to a horses temprement or digestive health but after my experiences I disagree. Normal horses need 9-10% good quality protein to build muscles ect. Lactating mares and youngstock need 12% protein but no horses need any more then that. I have read studies where they say excess protein can really tax the body and cause all sorts of things from colic to tying up and there are studies that say the total opposite and that alfalfa is amazing. I know what studies i'm siding with.

I wanted to write this thread because I know there are a lot of feeds out there at the moment with silly high levels of protein in them. People have realised the dangers of too much starch and sugars but what about protein? The spring grass is about to hit with levels of protein up to 30% and sugars up to 40%. Those with chunky types who are prone to laminitis know the dangers but us owners with throughbreds need to remember that just because our horses can consume tons of calories and not get fat in the way cobs do, they can still show the effects of excess sugars and proteins in a different way with over exuberant behaviour, upset tummys and colic.

Im preparing now by cutting his balancer down (he wont need as much with the goodness in the grass) and I swapped him ages ago to Hifi and fibre nuts and to be honest this is the diet he is staying on! No more high alfalfa feeds or rich feeds for my horse. I will add oil and s.beet if he drops off in winter but will monitor it myself.

This is not meant to be a post slating alfa or protein, I think a small amount of alfa (im still feeding hifi) is good as it helps neutralise acid in the gut and protein is absolutly essential. BUT I just wanted to remind people the dangers of feeding too much of one thing and to adjust what we are feeding ready for the spring :). Everything in moderation!

:)
 
I am sorry to hear that you lost your mare.

Alfalfa IS very high in protein and it can cause thick urine, scurfiness, itching and subsequently bald patches amongst others.

I don't think it is widely known that it should be fed in moderation to horses unless they are in very hard work (ie racehorses, hunters, etc, etc)

Here (serious dairy country) it is commonly fed at a very high ratio to cattle (baled at 100%, then mixed with corn and what have you) to up body mass for beef and milk production.

This may be of interest:

http://ucanr.org/alf_symp/2001/01-061.pdf
 
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Excuse my ignorance but what would you consider is a high quantity? For example my cob gets 1 1/2 kg of Alfalfa pellets (soaked) and 1 1/2 kg of Fast Fibre (soaked) combined together in 2 meals a day..so 1 1/2 kg twice a day) he's worked 6 days a week and isn't a 'good doer' as he has sugar intolerance so is on hay and terrible grazing as cannot cope with rich grass. Would you think that is too high for a horse is low to medium work? :confused:
 
Interesting read.

I use the Alfa A Oil, but not in the amounts you were feeding, however it could of been a combination of the other factors that lead to your mares death, not just the amout of Alfa you were feeding, but yes, you could be also be right about the whole thing. :)
 
I don't think it was your fault you did as told by the vet, wich is the expert!! Don't hold it upon yourself, you must of given her a good life as you knew the dangers and changed this the best you could.

I have a cob and have already started to bring him in the day to slow down how much he eats and cut his feed down to a hand full of happy hoof, and 1 slice of small hay when out, on a weekend.

It's not your fault and I'm sure your mare didn't hold anything against you. X
 
Yes my mare would never have lived to see old age no matter what I fed her I don't think but the Alfa definitely did not help. I'm cross because what the tests showed were that she couldn't process the protein in her diet yet myself and the vet didn't realise this and instead gave her even more! We just assumed it was sugars and cereals that were making her sick :(

I didn't mean the 1 scoop of Alfa people give to mix feed is bad but when it's being fed as the sole concentrate and you have to feed 3-7 kilos of the stuff that it seems to have some quite negative effects in *some* horses. I just wish I knew 2 years ago what I know now about the damage of excess protein :(
 
Picolenicol thanks, it does make me sad to think I could have made her last longer but that's life eh! Just didnt want others to make same mistake :)
 
really sad to hear that you lost your mare, but please don't beat yourself up for listening to the vets, who are the experts after all.
i think of Alfa as being the long feed equivalent of oats, so i never feed more than 1/2 scoop at a time... but if a vet had told me to, i would have done as they suggested. thanks for the warning, duly noted.
 
Very interesting thanks for posting Firewell. My old boy has had colicy tummy grummble for many years. He's been scoped and we put it down to his age (now 32) and his gut not functioning as good as it did. I have always fed Alpha, not in the quantites you were, but still - enough. For the past 18 (ish)months, I havent. He gets veteran Mollichaff plus other stuff. He hasnt had a colic bout for about 18 month!!!! Make ya wonder!
 
I feed my horse alfa a oil (well countrywide's own version) alfa pellets and alfa beet. Apart from hay & grass when there is any all the feed he gets is alfalfa based.
 
I have read this thread with great interest and you may like to look at this interesting link which speaks of the dangers of feeding too much protein:

http://www.womenandhorses.com/protein20050517.html

I think I got the link from a thread on this forum. I have an extremely aggressive young WB. He has got progressively worse and interestingly it was only when a friend pointed at his diet that I did some research and believe that Alfalfa and high protein feed can send horses off their head literally. I was feeding Copra (coconut)- Coolstance which is 20.9% protein and Alfa A oil. When my horse was scoped and diagnosed with some low grade ulcers I was patting myself on the back for listening to another friend and feeding the non-cereal diet I did. It could have of course been the acid production that caused the ulcers.

Until his aggression made him unrideable and dangerous to handle. He is now on a forage diet - he does get some alfalfa chaff, but his protein intake is much reduced. He is still aggressive but much calmer. Alfalfa is also high in calcium as is the locust bean or carob kibble I feed with Fast Fibre/Calm and condition now. You need to watch calcium also just as you say once the grass is through let nature provide the balance of nutrients. We have no winter grass so this feed is fine until spring.
 
I absolutely agree that feeding high levels of protein can cause problems...

Despite being told it was the best feed for her, my mare, who suffers from azortoria, had a really bad tying up episode 2 weeks after starting her on alpha a oil. She was only having 2 round scoops a day.

I've also done some research and agree that excess protein is basically a no-no...

However, you did the best you could and listened to your vet which was the right thing to do at the time, so please don't blame yourself.
 
Agree with you that although alfalfa is a useful feed, you shouldn't feed too much of it - not just because of the protein levels, but because of the minerals in it as well. It's fine if you are using a scoop or so, but if you are feeding it by the bucketful or as a partial or full hay replacer then it can unbalance the diet. There was someone who posted on here about their horse weeing excessively and it turned out she was feeding tubs of alfalfa chaff as a partial hay replacer - it was suggested that alfalfa isn't suitable for that purpose so she cut it out and horse went back to normal.
 
Im sorry to hear what happened to your mare firewell, but maybe by posting this you are able to help other people re-think their feed regime. You have certainly made me think as I have just started a thread about my mare losing muscle this winter and every feed company I have spoken to has said she needs good quality protein. I know that by feeding a scoop of the feeds mentioned in my thread that I shouldn't be causing a problem but I will be extra careful about what I'm doing.
 
OP really feel for you :( we try so hard to give the best to our horses and something like this is just ***** :(

Thank you for sharing this though, my boy is on a number of feeds (as he wont eat too much of the same thing) including Alfa a oil but I will now take a look at the levels of protein and adjust if necessary.

This post alone could help another horse :)
 
Interesting thread. I do feed Alfalfa to my TB and have fed it to horses for years without a problem but at a maximum of 2 scoops a day. I will be aware not to OD on this though so thanks for the info.
When I have visited the USA they often solely feed Alfalfa hay (i.e. baled like our grass hay) so any americans on this site have any advice/input just out of interest?
 
So so interseting - must keep this bumped as Dengie certainly have the monopoly...

I always had my suspicions even though I use hifi-lite only by the handful.

Look out for cloudy wee-wee....
 
I can't feed any alfalfa to my lami-prone mare as it makes her more sensitive, and is probably what triggered the whole thing (along with a heavy frost), as she'd lived out for years no prob on all types of grass, then the winter we were feeding alpha-beet (big bucketful daily), was the one when, inexplicably (she's TB, was young, in work and not obese), she went down with lami and has been unable to eat much grass/hay/sugar at all since then.
 
Just to say, protein being excreted in the urine etc is not necessarily due to excessive protein in the diet. It can (and in most cases of clinically ill animals with this sign) is due to a protein losing enteropathy or nephropathy - often due to worm damage causing inflammation of the intestines/kidneys resulting in free/easy passage of proteins etc across the cell walls. In these cases, treatment should involve a moderate amount of high quality proteins. A plasma prtoein measurement was surely taken in the case of your mare and from the history you have given I wouldnt be surprised if that was low - hence the advice given by your vet. If you need to clear your mind - ring your vet to clarify that. If its been anytime in the last 4-5yrs they should still have the results on file.

Whilst i do agree that high protein diets are unnecessary and potentially dangerous, I really dont think it was what actually killed your mare from what you say.
 
I feed alphalfa pellets and also unmolassed fine chop alfalfa to my guys mixed with pony nuts and mollichaff. They also get beetpulp as well.

My guys get what is probably akin to a round scoop a day of each of these split over two feeds and I ahve to say all I have noticed is that they have kept weight better (poor doers) this year.

My gelding no matter what you put him on has residue left when he piddles (looks like sulphur) vets arent worried as he has been checked out :)

I cant see how this could have affected yours mares passing but you have my sympathies as loosing a trusted friend is heartbreaking without thinking you were the cause also
 
Thanks
Glenruby they didn't tell me much as I dont think they knew what was going on.. He just said that she had lots of excess fluid which they drained with a peritoneal tap and after spending thousands doing ultra-sounds and MRI's of her tummy and a million different tests including blood ect that she had raised protein levels, that was it.... Even when they opened her up the vet said her digestive system was such a mess he had never seen anything like it but he didn't actually tell me anything useful..
I absolutely do not think Alfa/protein caused her problems but I know that feeding her so much didn't help and probably added to her suffering.
I think a scoop of Alfa here and there is fine for horses that need it, I just don't think some horses do really need it (we have grass here, which grows good hay in some parts of America they don't get grass so probably have more need for alfa I'm guessing?).
I'm thinking of Alfa a as a performance feed now to be fed in moderation to poor or hard working horses that need it. I just won't feed it so casually and in such large amounts! IMO using a lot of it as a sole concentrate is too much what with spring grass and haylage ect as well. I'm sticking to 'safe' feed from now on.. fibre lol.
 
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