important announcement from DEFRA re passports

Great just what we need! Because the NED has worked so well hasn't it!! My 3 year olds and everything I’ve bred since is still not on the NED, which they blamed on my PIO, who are NOT to blame and now I get no replies to my queries.

So now we will have to pay more to fund it all, put up with hideous bureaucracy and pay for the National Database too boot as well as depriving breed societies of any income from the process.

Nice to see that DEFRA are now allowing plenty of time for consultation and involving all interested parties NOT.

Here we go again, because it won’t stop here.

If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for it’s “services”, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then don’t saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!
 
KarynK said:
If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for it’s “services”, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then don’t saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!
Click to expand...

Hear, hear!
 
Ned is a joke I have my stallions records with Weatherbys Chaps and they are up to date NED is not I am not even his owner you know what would have been funny in a horrid way is if the horse tax had come in and they taxed you on the horses you owned according to med my bill would be 0 well done for getting it so wrong and wasting so much money
 
I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation. Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc. It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc
 
Faithkat said:
I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation. Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc. It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc
Click to expand...

Yeah cus the KC have done such a fantastic job haven't they, all that red tape, some ill thought out decisions, often influenced by personal views or views of those of influence within the dog world and knee jerk reactions to the power of the press! Just what the equine industry needs.

I doubt very much that a centralised horse registry will come any where near close to simplyfying anything and who's going to pay for the "policing" currently done by individual bodies at cost, give that over to a quango and you will at least triple the price of a passport.

Quango's can't function without their own purpose built offices, headed stationary a committee for everything including the tea and coffee rota, some nice 4wd vehicles in which to police, some fashionable uniforms and the latest technology that then does not do what it says on the can oh and some form of duplication in there too!

It's not the passport issuers that are at fault they are doing a good job generally for a very small price, the weak link is the NED so WHY on earth would you even begin to contemplate giving such a body MORE power and less money. The only ones that will loose will be horse breeders and owners and if the Tax comes in too!!
 
New DEFRA plans to take over all passport issuing and stop all organisations issuing passports is a body blow to the breed societies who rely on this income to keep the society afloat. They intend to sell this revenue source off to the highest bidder and so have a central database at zero cost to the taxpayer which means of course that you will have to pay more for your passport as you will be paying for all the governments’ total expenditure. The claim that the economies of scale will reduce costs is nonsense as most small breed societies are run by dedicated volunteers who are not paid. The NED contract will expire in October 2011. The DEFRA claim that standardisation will improve the quality of passports means that the best passports will be worse. It is quite laughable that Weatherbys Passports would be issued by a commercial orgaisation approved by DEFRA. The complexity of Sports Horse passports which are controlled by studbook experts with years of knowledge leads to a better control of fraud as how many people would spot that a new passport application with a 528 chip number was a false claim as 528 is a KWPN number and the horse would have been issued with a KWPN passport.
DEFDRA was told in 2003 that allowing anyone to issue passports was a mistake an so it has proved.
The directive says the organisation or association officially approved or recognised by the Member State or by an official agency of the Member State concerned as referred to in the first indent of Article 2(c) of Directive 90/427/EEC which manages the studbook for that breed for that breed of animal, as required in accordance with Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC
(b) a branch with its headquarters in a Member State of an international association or organisation which manages horses for competition or racing as referred to in Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC;
How does that define the Veteran Horse Society?
The proposal goes on to say that breed societies will continue to be responsible for breed preservation and the verification of the pedigree information. So how will they be paid for that service and by whom and how will that be cheaper than letting them do the passports.
 
I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen. As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice. My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams. I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working – the only thing not working is NED. To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!
 
Yorketown said:
I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen. As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice. My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams. I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working – the only thing not working is NED. To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!
Click to expand...

Agree agree agree!
 
Yorketown said:
I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen. As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice. My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams. I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working – the only thing not working is NED. To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!
Click to expand...

I don't think we should hope but INSIST that all PIOs attend this meeting. There should be no excuses from any of them, they all should be able to send at least one person from their committees to it.

Agree with your other point entirely. We don't actually need NED at all and if the Gov' need to know anything they should make the PIOs accountable for passing on numbers etc; it would be a whole lot cheaper to do it that way than set up another version of useless NED. There is no need for anyone having to pay out for anything more. Perhaps it's time for quick emails before the meeting to the MPs and DEFRA about how we feel as we are the ultimate customers of passports.
 
I might be being very naive here, and given I'm not overly familiar with NED / PIO's /Breed Society structure etc, I might be way off mark here ....

But I can see the benefits of having a centralised register, such as the NED. I'm not convinced of the merits of a central passport agency though.

Currently the system seems a bit arse about tit. Would it not make more sense to say, for example, have a system whereby for new born equines the owner is required to register the horse on the NED database along with the now required Microchip number. The NED would issue a unique horse identifier. This would be done prior to application for a passport.

This unique horse identifier would then be incorporated into the PIO system to provide a cross link.

And then have a similar system for imported horses?
 
Maesfen said:
I don't think we should hope but INSIST that all PIOs attend this meeting. There should be no excuses from any of them, they all should be able to send at least one person from their committees to it.
Click to expand...

IF they know about it! I got the letter from another source and was rather surprised I had heard nothing from IDHS(GB) (as I'm a Trustee.) IDHS(GB) hadn't got it! SO - less than 12 days notice of a meeting - in London - which will mean a Trustee dumping other things to get to London for the meeting - AFTER dozens of e-mails go back and forth between Trustees determining what 'our position' will be.

It appears that DEFRA is saying a single PIO is what will happen - the 'consultation' is after the event! This is going to cost all breed societies a LOT of money - and as the single PIO WILL be a 'for profit' organisation, it's going to cost all breeders a lot more too!

Of course, it's primarily a result of the Government cutting budgets - but this is one we CAN put a stop to.
 
NED could have its uses (if it functioned as it should). 1. When purchasing a horse you could easily ascertain if the person selling the horse is in fact the owner. 2. Reviewing a stallions performance and progeny records (not essential but I had great fun going through NEDs records for this purpose). 3. Maybe the most important use would be if there was a disease outbreak it is beneficial for there to be a central database of all horses in the UK so that letters can be sent out to owners, infected horses movements could be checked etc. It could actually be improved to contain other useful information. For example if a horse had a serious tendon injury an owner could update the database with this information to prevent the horse ever being sold in the future as a completion horse after they have sold it in good faith as a companion/nanny.

However, as pointed out it could also be used by any future government for taxation purposes. I suppose you would have to weigh up the good and the bad.
 
Please can people contacting their Breed Society to ensure a representative will be attending the meeting. So peeps, get emailing/writing/calling!! Thank you.
 
Faithkat said:
I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation. Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc. It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc
Click to expand...

Agreed. France has one database. We have found it very efficient and horses are automatically registered in their mother stud books. My Shagya Arabs have French Passports and are registered in the mother stud book in Switzerland. It costs me 45 euros.

We have our own 'page' on the Haras Nationaux website and can check our details at any time. The people are helpful.

Our UK breed society have been somewhat difficult to deal with, on occasions, and a dispute with regard to the registration of French born British Natives is still not resolved after 5 years.

I would be even more worried if DEFRA were to manage the system. During five years I have only dealt with one person in France and one person at the German Equestrian Federation -both experts on equine matters. At DEFRA a total of six different people have dealt with my case, none of them equestrian specialists.
 
ihatework said:
I might be being very naive here, and given I'm not overly familiar with NED / PIO's /Breed Society structure etc, I might be way off mark here ....

But I can see the benefits of having a centralised register, such as the NED. I'm not convinced of the merits of a central passport agency though.

Currently the system seems a bit arse about tit. Would it not make more sense to say, for example, have a system whereby for new born equines the owner is required to register the horse on the NED database along with the now required Microchip number. The NED would issue a unique horse identifier. This would be done prior to application for a passport.

This unique horse identifier would then be incorporated into the PIO system to provide a cross link.

And then have a similar system for imported horses?
Click to expand...

YES YES YES.

An argument I have had with DEFRA for five years. All horses imported to France have to have new papers prepared by a FRench vet and MUST be registered on the Haras Nationaux database - cost for registration 120 euros per horse.

French horses coming into the UK come in for 'free'.

British Breeding has been disadvantaged for years.
 
Of what use is the NED database? How many people use it? How much money have the brought in?
This idea of a central passport issuing organisation is a non starter for pedigree animals. If this had even been thought of before passports were mandatory is one thing. The implication of someone other than the experts at a breed society issuing passports and actually how they would do it makes the mind boggle. Any registration body out there knows full well that the work involved to correctly identify the horses from badly filled in and incorrect spellings on covering certificates is the first stumbling block and needs skilled staff. Picking the correct stallion, the correct mare, checking that they are indeed entered for breeding, parent verified etc. + time delay sending the DNA to the lab and getting the result back. It may well be that passports would not be issued within that first 6 months as is currently law. Look forward to reading more posts on this subject.
 
As a passport “consumer” I do see merit in this idea if it is done well. I don’t see why the likes of Weatherbys should give up issuing passports as they are absolutely fantastic as are many of the other bigger PIOs. However the service does vary elsewhere and a few PIOs have disappeared in the last few years leaving people in difficulties.
In Denmark the small breed societies do have their passports issued by a Govt body which is staffed by poeple very clued up on passports. The Breed societies still exist. There is a database maintained which if you are a member of the small breed societies you get free access to . So you could work something like that incoporating NED. However I think Danish WB for example still issue their own passports. Maybe that woud work in the UK?

Passports have tightened up. You are all talking as if the current situation is fantastic? I know people waiting for passports to turn up. Their foals cannot leave to go to a new home because the transporter will not take it without a passport. If you are transporting a foal 300 or 400 miles or even further afield, this is a serious problem as the transporter is booked well in advance. They cannot contact the volunteer at their PIO to find where their passport is. I volunteer as well and I know how hard it is but that is exactly the point. When my passport does not turn up, it is much easier to contact an employed person at a work number and get stroppy saying this foal needs to leave, where is my passport than it is to do the same to a volunteer – if you can get hold of them at all?

The other thing I think is crazy is having separate microchip companies for horses. The PIO or Defra if it is in charge, should issue the microchip with the passport application form and all the info should be in one place. When a foal is sold the new owner should only have to pay to change their details ONCE with the PIO and that should also up date the microchip info which is recorded on the passport, having to pay again and contact separately a microchip company seems completely mad. I would like to see PIO's sorting this out , that would cut costs for owners and be much better for horses to have all info in one place.

There also see to be real variance in some PIOs in how they follow the law and how they reissue passports for older horses. Something does need to be done and Defra could do it well especially if they employed some of the good voulunteers currently doing a fab job.
 
firm said:
Something does need to be done and Defra could do it well especially if they employed some of the good voulunteers currently doing a fab job.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of your points - but that last one is a HOOT! Defra cannot do ANYTHING well; it has NEVER done anything well - and the chances of it EVER doing anything well are about a million to one!

It made a TOTAL mess of implementing passports in the first place - and accepting PIO's. "Oh yes, let's make Southall Market a PIO so when stolen horses arrive on market day with no passport, one can be issued on the spot!" :rolleyes:

And when the EU brings in new requirements in the paperwork, as part of the review and microchipping, let's FORGET to tell the PIO's about it for MONTHS - and then demand that they throw out thousands of pounds worth of paperwork, and replace everything virtually overnight!

I could go on (and on!) but you get the picture.

The REASON Defra has come up with this GREAT idea is that they have been told to cut their budget! As NED needs more money, lets have a single, commercial PIO raking in the passport revenue - and IT can fund NED. And bu**er the Breed Societies who will lose an important revenue stream - they can STILL verify breeding and do half the work for the new single PIO!

But don't tell them about this great idea of ours - and delay telling them about the so-called 'consultation' - with a bit of luck half of them won't be able to get to London at short notice - and as we don't intend to take ANY notice of them anyway ......

Believe me when I say this FARCE is going to cost breeders and owners MORE, and result in a FAR less efficient service! It will achieve NOTHING of any value to anyone except Defra!!
 
Here Here JanetGeorge and then you have York horse sales that can ssue passports its a bloody con a license to STEAL ! and should have been nipped in the bud years ago how many stolen horses have been given a new passport its wrong.
 
JG and As I also agree with your points.
But what are PIOs going to do about it and how to improve things I mentioned above? I believe NED is something that PIOs should be offering their members and is something needed in the UK. Maybe the PIOs could tender for it? ;-)

Before I decide completely that what Defra is suggesting is a bad idea, I would like to hear alternative suggestions to improve things from PIOs themselves and how to provide NED? As a Society member I think I should have info on at least the horses and their progeny registered in a Society to make breeding decisions.

A Breed Society can function without providing passports e.g. grading, memberships, free entry to NED could be negotiated if passport issuing was removed.
However an organisation that just issues passports at markets etc and no other benefits would not survive but I actually think that would be a very good idea

Edited just to reiterate I am not saying that PIO should lose their passport issuing status btu I hope this might shake things up and improve things!

I would certainly like to know which PIOs do attend this meeting.
 
Last edited:
firm said:
But what are PIOs going to do about it and how to improve things I mentioned above? I believe NED is something that PIOs should be offering their members and is something needed in the UK. Maybe the PIOs could tender for it? ;-)
Click to expand...

The only thing the PIIO's CAN do about Defra's proposal is to fight it - Defra is attempting to rush it through with little/no consultation - and we have NO information on which to base a response. NED isn't going to be put up for tender - it will go to whoever becomes the Universal PIO (God Forbid!) This whole thing has come about because NED needs ongoing funding - and Defra is trying to slash its budget!

As a Society member I think I should have info on at least the horses and their progeny registered in a Society to make breeding decisions.
Click to expand...

If you're a member of a Breed Society then you should HAVE that information available, in one form or another. The IDHS (GB) has its entire database online (although it IS 'Members only) - I can look up any horse, its pedigree and its progeny . In fact the Australian ID database (which incorporates the Irish and UK databases) is even better as you can get far more detailed breeding information - Coefficient of Inbreeding, AVK, ancestor 'loss' due to line breeding etc. etc. on either a 5 or 10 generation pedigree!!

Edited just to reiterate I am not saying that PIO should lose their passport issuing status btu I hope this might shake things up and improve things!
Click to expand...

But Defra's proposal IS that ALL PIO's lose their passport issuing status - and that one company will get the lot! Given the total lack of success that Government departments seem to demonstrate when it comes to selecting the right company for any job - PARTICULARLY anything involving IT or databases - the one thing this WON'T do is improve anything!
 
Well Said, JG.

It should be RIP NED as it was with the British Horse Database. It did not work then and it has not worked now. Just leave the Breed Societies / PIOs alone. DEFRA already get the mandatory data that has to be sent up monthly which was supposedly for disease surveillance? Enough, no more expenditure for Government. There is the saving - just Goodbye NED - let it go. Sad for the people that have tried so hard but it's not a flyer why pump more money in.

Let's have some facts and figures as to what NED has cost so far, what the salaries were and to whom? what was the income, and etc. Who can find that out?

As JG says there are plenty of ways of finding out information on the web these days and it is FREE. Can't even find breeder names on NED.
 
Excellent Quote from this thread...

If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for it’s “services”, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then don’t saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top