important announcement from DEFRA re passports

I will send letter of asking for more time as I have read some of what JG has said on BD and like it :-)

The free on line pedigree sites arghhhhh Sport Data not so bad but the other one - five times I have had to correct just ONE of my horses pedigrees on there. Before I came on here tonight I went and checked his pedigree and yep someone has changed it yet again. I am not bothering to correct it for the 6th time.
 
Wow. And I thought I was the only one with problems! So glad I read this thread. I too am having problems with getting my horse's details on NED and yes, like KarynK and others, have had the silent treatment from NED and DEFRA around this, despite trying for over 6 months. I even wrote to H&H a number of months ago and whilst I don't get every issue, I haven't heard them focus on this matter.
It does make my blood boil when DEFRA and NED quote the responsibilities of the PIOs to update NED monthly but they can't get their act together to update their website.
I think this needs a higher profile.
I know NED representatives read the forum (as I got a response from them when I first posted this a number of months ago - that was before they moved to radio silence of course!), so maybe we will get lucky and they will take the hint from this thread.
Its got to be better than sending an email via their complaints link on the NED website as that goes straight into a black hole. I'm still not sure why they bother having this facility.
 
Herts05 said:
Wow. And I thought I was the only one with problems! So glad I read this thread. I too am having problems with getting my horse's details on NED and yes, like KarynK and others, have had the silent treatment from NED and DEFRA around this, despite trying for over 6 months. I even wrote to H&H a number of months ago and whilst I don't get every issue, I haven't heard them focus on this matter.
It does make my blood boil when DEFRA and NED quote the responsibilities of the PIOs to update NED monthly but they can't get their act together to update their website.
I think this needs a higher profile.
I know NED representatives read the forum (as I got a response from them when I first posted this a number of months ago - that was before they moved to radio silence of course!), so maybe we will get lucky and they will take the hint from this thread.
Its got to be better than sending an email via their complaints link on the NED website as that goes straight into a black hole. I'm still not sure why they bother having this facility.
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I hadn't realised until someone pointed it out on another forum that NED are between a rock and a hard place ..... I think that the real villains of the piece (why are we not surprised??!!) is Defra. NED have had only two full-time staff, I believe, over two years to get in all the info from over 80 PIOs, with different systems, some who never answer, many who submit incomplete or incorrect info, and they themselves are often dependent on volunteer labour so it takes them forever to submit the info in the first place to NED. I did think, on reading that, the NED staff have a very thankless task and maybe, however frustrating the current situation is for horse owners and breeders, what it points to is not NED bashing but that the current system needs to change and be rationalised. NOT, however, with no consultation, a crazy deadline, and totally muddled thinking on the part of Defra! Janet George has come up with one very interesting suggestion about a "co-operative" of PIOs, for instance - but this and other suggestions need time to explore. This time round we need to try to ensure that whatever change is made, and whatever system is set up, it WORKS, for everyone concerned!
 
Yes some of the free pedigree sites are inaccurate and subject to idiots changing details but the whole point is that they are run for free and contain all sorts useful info.

I happily subscribe to all breeds because providing I double check first I can go back generations, look at inbreeding co-efficients and details of animals inbred in the pedigree and their pictures for about $50 a year and download the results of my research to an excel spreadsheet and do even more with it!

So if a group or even one or two enthusiasts can do this on line for hundreds of thousands of horses from different breeds worldwide with pictures on the web, then with a little tweaking as to who can imput and edit why can't the PIO's? Why do we need to spend any money, advertising could pay for upkeep and improvements so it can be done at little or no cost !!!

Like I say what you would need is a comsultant IT specialist and some advertising revenue and a few ideas as to what people need then you are away.

I'm afraid I have little sympathy for staff at NED, the contract was tendered for so should have allowed for the initial volume and differences in data supplied, this should have been considered before they took on the task taking tax payers money. Modern IT systems should be able to cope with data from diverse sources if not then it was never fit for purpose. I'm afraid I lost any sympathy when they failed to explain their situation, and started blaming PIO's !
 
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Once again I am very disappointed in your approach to consultation on matters related to horse ownership and passport issue.

I have just been made aware of your current proposal by letter to the PIO's which once again is knee jerk, under consulted and in my opinion ill thought out. Combine that with the usual impossibly short consultation period and this is rushed and bound to encounter serious problems in the future.

Like others who own and breed horses I am very concerned by this stealth approach to major change, with the potential to seriously increase costs, so have written to my MP separately on the matter. But I urge you to delay immediately the current rushed schedule to allow you to consult properly not just with PIO's, but with other affected parties such as individual horse owners and breeders as well as groups and organisations. Perhaps then you can approach this matter from a wider perspective gather ideas from those at the business end of passports and horse information, not saddle horse owners and breeders with the cost of another potential white elephant (that is not actually required by law), by rushing headlong to save money!

There are plenty of us out here as you will know from your statistics and as a department you do not have the monopoly on good ideas, so allow us time and we may well surprise you on how best to abstract Tax Payers money from this whole process without increasing bureaucracy and cost to the end user.

If you feel inclined to let them know your thoughts (relatively politely of course) the address is:
horse.passports@defra.gsi.gov.uk
 
I am not very up with passports etc - my horses obviously have them but thats as far as it goes.

Can someone explain to me in simple persons speak (!) what this means?

Will all horses have to obtain a new passport with this one ''agency'' and you wont be able to get a passport from anywhere else such as AES, KWPN etc? Or are existing passports kept and only new born horses will have to go with this new ''agency''?
 
Aredis said:
I really am surprised that you expect a reply from DEFRA within a week. Have you never dealt with them before !!
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I know, I know - wishful thinking!! I just thought as they had given the PIOs such short notice they would be quick with the responses and justifications as to why. My mistake - won't happen again :)
 
Tempi said:
I am not very up with passports etc - my horses obviously have them but thats as far as it goes.

Can someone explain to me in simple persons speak (!) what this means?

Will all horses have to obtain a new passport with this one ''agency'' and you wont be able to get a passport from anywhere else such as AES, KWPN etc? Or are existing passports kept and only new born horses will have to go with this new ''agency''?
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Tempi, from what I understand any foals born in 2012 will be issued a passport from the new agency, however more details should emerge once the PIOs have attended the meeting next week. So far DEFRA are not being very forthcoming with the details.
 
I have my horses registered with Pet ID Equine, they have always been really helpful and do a fast turnaround! It would be a shame to lose companies that do a good job.
 
angrovestud said:
Ned is a joke I have my stallions records with Weatherbys Chaps and they are up to date NED is not I am not even his owner you know what would have been funny in a horrid way is if the horse tax had come in and they taxed you on the horses you owned according to med my bill would be 0 well done for getting it so wrong and wasting so much money
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I have one of my horses currently passported with chaps, and cannot find him on NED'S at all. However my pony is passported with PET- ID his details show on NED'S.
 
I too have had an acknowledgement of receipt of my email from my MP, so let's wait and see what happens next.
Just shows how helpful these forums are.
 
Aredis said:
Mondays meeting has been postponed and DEFRA are inviting written responses from breed society's.
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Why does it state in yesterday's Horse & Hound Page 5 that "Passport meeting takes place - Breed societies MET with Defra on Monday to discuss the planned axing of the UK's 80 PIOs."?????

What is going on?
 
oldforge said:
It has gone very quiet out there. Is there any update? What are the Breed Societies doing about this?
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Not if you are involved in running a PIO on a day to day level it hasn't -- letters and comments are winging their way to DEFRA from all directions as we speak -- and we await an official announcement from DEFRA as to what timescale we are all to be working to now. We also have the fascinating prospect of the Minister addressing the UK horse industry at the National Equine Forum in early March, and with all the studbook PIOs invited there as of right it should be quite a lively meeting :-)

BTW, a response to Lynne B: The DEFRA / PIO meeting was cancelled waaay before H&H went to press, in fact last Thursday lunchtime, which would surely have given them enough time to revise their story line <sigh>. But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>
 
Ciss said:
But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>
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NOT SEXY enough!!
Right: I can feel a calender or similar coming on now then - who's up for it....???
;o)
 
Ciss said:
The DEFRA / PIO meeting was cancelled waaay before H&H went to press, in fact last Thursday lunchtime, which would surely have given them enough time to revise their story line <sigh>. But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>
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That's a bit unfair! The fault is with those who KNEW the meeting had been postponed - and didn't let H&H know. We told them quick enough when we wanted the story covered the week before - and they did the story proud at short notice.

Let's face it, Defra wouldn't have sent them a press release saying: "Ooops - we have egg on our collective face - we've postponed the meeting!"
 
oldforge said:
Of what use is the NED database? How many people use it? How much money have the brought in?
This idea of a central passport issuing organisation is a non starter for pedigree animals. If this had even been thought of before passports were mandatory is one thing. The implication of someone other than the experts at a breed society issuing passports and actually how they would do it makes the mind boggle. Any registration body out there knows full well that the work involved to correctly identify the horses from badly filled in and incorrect spellings on covering certificates is the first stumbling block and needs skilled staff. Picking the correct stallion, the correct mare, checking that they are indeed entered for breeding, parent verified etc. + time delay sending the DNA to the lab and getting the result back. It may well be that passports would not be issued within that first 6 months as is currently law. Look forward to reading more posts on this subject.
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France has one PIO for pedigree animals. Les Haras Nationaux has been running such a system for years. It is linked both to the French National Database - SIRE and stud books.

When I obtained passports from HN for my Shagya Arabs they were automatically registered in the stud book in Switzerland. HN also organise DNA testing if that is what stud books require and that can be done at the same time as the vet m/chips the horse and does the outline and description for the passport. There is so much data on line it is a simple process.

Furthermore, HN issue a separate Carte D'Immatriculation which IS proof of ownership and should be kept by the owner and NOT the keeper of the horse. Result no nonsense with your horse being 'stolen on loan' or out of the field and given a new passport by the friendly PIO at your local horse auction.
 
Bumping this up as would like to know if there is any updates on the postponed meeting? Am preparing the newsletter for our breed society and it is a very important item that needs to be reported. This seems to be the most 'in touch' place to look. Thank you. :)
 
I might get shot down for this but when passports first came out I thought that a central organisation like the BHS or similar should be issuing a standard passport with unique passport number, identifying marks, colour and as much of the pedigree as is known on it. Then when the horse is registered with any other organisation (palamino horse soc, PBA soc, BS, whatever) the organisation uses the same passport number and overstamps a back page on the original passport to certify registered with them. The same people run the NED so the horse is entered into the NED when the passport is issued and can be found using that one passport number in any society it is regiestered with. When the paperwork goes off to register a change of ownership again the NED is updated.

All microchips also carry the passport number.

I thought it sounded much easier than faffing around getting confused by multiple registrations and having thousands of different people inputting data into the NED.
 
Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:
I might get shot down for this but when passports first came out I thought that a central organisation like the BHS or similar should be issuing a standard passport with unique passport number, identifying marks, colour and as much of the pedigree as is known on it. Then when the horse is registered with any other organisation (palamino horse soc, PBA soc, BS, whatever) the organisation uses the same passport number and overstamps a back page on the original passport to certify registered with them. The same people run the NED so the horse is entered into the NED when the passport is issued and can be found using that one passport number in any society it is regiestered with. When the paperwork goes off to register a change of ownership again the NED is updated.

All microchips also carry the passport number.

I thought it sounded much easier than faffing around getting confused by multiple registrations and having thousands of different people inputting data into the NED.
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You are correct. Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.

Let us face it passports in the UK have been a muddle from start to finish. For the hell of it I obtained passports from different PIO's and found they all had different interpretation of the regs.
 
Rollin said:
You are correct. Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.

Let us face it passports in the UK have been a muddle from start to finish. For the hell of it I obtained passports from different PIO's and found they all had different interpretation of the regs.
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It was a crying shame that they weren't, wouldn't be half the trouble there is now.
Would be very interested to know which you think are the most comprehensive, better or bad quality and which you'd recommend for anyone with an unknown breeding type and which you wouldn't recommend in any shape of form because of their procedures for things like new owners and so on. Would be good to have a comparison list to tick off the boxes we like or don't like.
 
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