important announcement from DEFRA re passports

[JanetGeorge]

You are correct. Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.

Lord Astor might have said it - doesn't mean it was true! The BHS Chairman at the time, Michael Clayton, DID push 'co-operation' regarding passports to the other organisations very enthusiastically. His view - and he convinced the BHS Trustees accordingly - was that passports would be good for welfare, would help reduce theft, and would be 'an earner' for the horse organisations. It was never suggested - or considered - that BHS would be the sole PIO. It was seen that generic passports could encourage membership (as BHS would issue passports cheaper to members, as they still do.)

UI was working at the BHS at the time in a senior role so was involved with all the discussions - and can contradict Lord Astor with inside knowledge.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Bumping this up as would like to know if there is any updates on the postponed meeting? Am preparing the newsletter for our breed society and it is a very important item that needs to be reported. This seems to be the most 'in touch' place to look. Thank you.

No updates re the meeting! There is a lot of work being put in by some good people behind the scenes, and some interesting points have been made to Defra. But Defra has gone VERY quiet.

 

[Rollin]

Lord Astor might have said it - doesn't mean it was true! The BHS Chairman at the time, Michael Clayton, DID push 'co-operation' regarding passports to the other organisations very enthusiastically. His view - and he convinced the BHS Trustees accordingly - was that passports would be good for welfare, would help reduce theft, and would be 'an earner' for the horse organisations. It was never suggested - or considered - that BHS would be the sole PIO. It was seen that generic passports could encourage membership (as BHS would issue passports cheaper to members, as they still do.)

UI was working at the BHS at the time in a senior role so was involved with all the discussions - and can contradict Lord Astor with inside knowledge.

There was a period of consultation on passports, before they were introduced. I wrote to DEFRA and asked to see ALL the responses and sent my analysis to Lord Astor.

Of 200 organisations who were consulted, 40 replied and only 4 were in favour of Horse Passports. BHS and BEF set identical letters claiming to represent the majority of horse owners in the UK. BHS made no attempt to ask questions of members in their survey which they conducted that year. Some of their comments, I thought were disrespectful to people who were NOT BHS members. When I wrote to the Chairman - who I believe then went to the SSPCA SHE first ignored my letter and then when chased told me she was too busy to answer the questions I posed. I did not renew my BHS membership!!!

I believe his Lordship was correct. When passports were first introduced I found BHS, sadly, not quite on the ball when it came to answering questions.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Of 200 organisations who were consulted, 40 replied and only 4 were in favour of Horse Passports. BHS and BEF set identical letters claiming to represent the majority of horse owners in the UK. BHS made no attempt to ask questions of members in their survey which they conducted that year. Some of their comments, I thought were disrespectful to people who were NOT BHS members. When I wrote to the Chairman - who I believe then went to the SSPCA SHE first ignored my letter and then when chased told me she was too busy to answer the questions I posed. I did not renew my BHS membership!!!

I believe his Lordship was correct. When passports were first introduced I found BHS, sadly, not quite on the ball when it came to answering questions.

AH - the 'lady' you refer to was the Chief Executive appointed after the consultation started - and I left as she arrived!! (I'd been Acting CE in the 8 months prior when the initial consultation was underway - she probably didn't KNOW the answers to the questions! In addition to me, she also 'lost' several very senior members of staff in her first few weeks!)

It may be that SHE had decided that BHS could hog the passport business - but it certainly wasn't considered previously!

 

[Rollin]

AH - the 'lady' you refer to was the Chief Executive appointed after the consultation started - and I left as she arrived!! (I'd been Acting CE in the 8 months prior when the initial consultation was underway - she probably didn't KNOW the answers to the questions! In addition to me, she also 'lost' several very senior members of staff in her first few weeks!)

It may be that SHE had decided that BHS could hog the passport business - but it certainly wasn't considered previously!

I understand that membership soared after passports were introduced.

However, you and I will not agree on the DEFRA proposals. I think there should be ONE PIO linked to a National Equine Database which is of benefit to breeders and owners, which the current one is not, largely because it is dependent on the 'whims' of the PIO's.

Breed societies should not forget that Passport and Stud book are not the same thing. There is no reason why Stud books should not charge for registration as they did before we had passports. As a breeder I am happy to pay this to support my breed society in the UK.

I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!! as supplied by PIO.

 

[JanetGeorge]

However, you and I will not agree on the DEFRA proposals. I think there should be ONE PIO linked to a National Equine Database which is of benefit to breeders and owners, which the current one is not, largely because it is dependent on the 'whims' of the PIO's.

There are currently more than 70 PIO's (there WERE 90!) It's a ridiculous number but - at the time - Defra insisted that it was mandatory under EU legislation to allow the ‘ customer’ the widest possible choice of supplier. Suddenly, it seems it's NOT mandatory for the 'customer' to have a choice!

Breed societies should not forget that Passport and Stud book are not the same thing. There is no reason why Stud books should not charge for registration as they did before we had passports. As a breeder I am happy to pay this to support my breed society in the UK.

Slight problem though - cost! If you have to pay for a passport AND pay for a registration - to two different lots of people - that's going to whack costs up at a time when most breeders are struggling! I pay the vet to do the ID document, microchip and DNA sample - that's about £80. I pay the Breed Society £30 for registration, £46 for DNA testing. But I get my passport 'free'. With a single PIO issuing passports independently of the Breed Society at - what - £30 per passport, that's an extra £400 a year I have to find. And will the new PIO accept a copy of the ID document done for the Breed Society, or will I have to pay the vet twice for the same bit of paperwork.

It's crazy duplication!

I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!! as supplied by PIO.

The reason this data is not supplied by many PIO's is that it NOT required of them! Some of them do it on a voluntary basis - particularly if their database can cope with doing it easily! Some of the smaller PIO's have to supply info to NED manually - it costs!

And if there is one PIO, probably a company run for profit, why should the Breed Societies supply it with data?? Many of the smaller Breed Societies have limited or no staff and are reliant on volunteers.

 

[Rollin]

Janet, no one was more cynical than me of the French system. Not any more.

As my Uk breed society could not reach an agreement with Haras Nationaux, with much regret, I registered my part-bred filly with AES this cost 42 euros to HN and 12 euros to AES.

What did i get?

Full passport and a separate ownership document - no keeper can sell my horse

Stud book registration

Competition in any French Class without registering again

Registration on a great database

Money received by HN is used to reward the best breeders each year

Also when the Merens numbers in France reached critically low levels a programme was put in place to save the breed.

Last year only 32 pure-bred Cleveland bays were born and registered worldwide I think are oldest and rarest breed teeters on the brink. Passport income for 32 neds won't save the breed. A National Stud such as France has would have taken action.

One PIO will bring economies of scale and instead of fighting it Breed Societies should fight for money to be used to support British Breeding.

 

[JanetGeorge]

One PIO will bring economies of scale and instead of fighting it Breed Societies should fight for money to be used to support British Breeding.

We might NOT fight it - IF the one PIO is 'owned' by the Breed Societies and Equestrian organisations, rather than a 'for profit' company!

No-one would disagree that the existing system is a mess - but it's Defra's mess! Defra's incompetence in implementing passports gave us the ridiculous situation we've got and we HAVE to fight Defra to prevent a new system being rushed in, without proper consultation, just because Defra wants (needs) to trim its budget!

The fact that Defra postponed the 'consultation' meeting at the first sign that the horse world was going to fight it, suggests very strongly that Defra hadn't considered this possibility, nor had they considered a number of important issues that HAVE to be resolved in advance of any change.

 

[KarynK]

I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!! as supplied by PIO.

I'd like to go on the NED and find everything I've bred for the past 4 years even named on it!!!

The NED started by blaming the PIO, when I got the information that this was not in fact true they made all sorts of promises and said they were working with the PIO (also not true) then they resorted to ignoring any attempts to contact them and I am not alone, nor is this problem with one PIO!!

I have no confidence in the NED and cannot see a two tier system of passport issue and registration working. If there had been one PIO from the start that might have possibly worked who knows. But what we now need to do is fix a system that is sort of working and make it what it should be, not start again and hang all the expense on the horse owning community and leave years of confusion ahead in working out what issued what in the aftermath of a complete reorganisation in a hurry.

 

[Rollin]

We might NOT fight it - IF the one PIO is 'owned' by the Breed Societies and Equestrian organisations, rather than a 'for profit' company!

No-one would disagree that the existing system is a mess - but it's Defra's mess! Defra's incompetence in implementing passports gave us the ridiculous situation we've got and we HAVE to fight Defra to prevent a new system being rushed in, without proper consultation, just because Defra wants (needs) to trim its budget!

The fact that Defra postponed the 'consultation' meeting at the first sign that the horse world was going to fight it, suggests very strongly that Defra hadn't considered this possibility, nor had they considered a number of important issues that HAVE to be resolved in advance of any change.

Here we have some agreement - an NFP that benefitted british breeding would be the ideal. Have letters to MP's expressed that view? or are PIO's just bemoaning their loss of passport income and the incompetence of DEFRA?. Surely the push should be for a NED/BEF such as enjoyed by France and Germany? A recognition by Govt. that the Equestrian Industry could have been an 'export' earner with a little more foresight.

In fact most of the warmbloods in Europe were 'improved' by the Best of British and now we Brits buy them back!!