In defence of Rollkur...

Yes, I completely agree. Doing something deliberately and doing it in ignorance while learning are completely different.

I suppose I would go back to Dr H's absolute elevation which he describes as producing a hollow back and broken neck similar to riding the horse hollow in the first place - this training and riding method seems to me to be very prevalent in competitions, not riding schools.

Young horses coming out of Germany seem to be ridden this way to produce a quick result for the sales (buyer beware here, the horse presented in advanced self-carriage in a short, straight line, probably can't even do a 20m cicle in a novice outline), as well as quite a few horses at competitions ridden with far too strong a hand.

This absolute elevation position seems to me problematic and (far) more common than rollkur, but very little is said about it in comparison. The rollkur debate may then turn out to be a red herring, focusing people's attention away from other detrimental methods of training.
 
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The rider is kicking you in the sides/ribs, you are responding and going forwards, but then the rider pulls you in the mouth hard... and leans back...(many pictures of Anky and others practically lying down doing this) your chin is pulled hard into your chest. your mouth hurts, your tongue is squashed, you hang it out the side (if you can) to escape the pain/squashing, you can't see where you are going, you can only see your own feet, you can't see anything else, you are totally dependant on the rider, you are full of fear, your back hurts, your hind legs cannot engage although the rider is jabbing and kicking at you. You start to sweat, full of tension, your neck hurts so badly, the nuchal ligament is breaking half way down your neck, it hurts, you try desperately to please, you cannot swallow,masses of foam escapes from your mouth, this rider on your back that causes so much pain, you know if you perform you will get let free from this pain. Learned helplessness.

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I think we may have to disagree onthis one, as I haven't seen Anky either kick or lean back. I am not her relative, friend or particular advocate of hers, but when I have seen her ride and train she has always shown an effective, subtle leg and a straight back. If anything when she did the demo at BD, a well known british rider appeared to be holding onto his horse with the reins, aptly demonstrated when Anky told him to give away his inside hand and then he could not even do a 20m circle in working trot. She worked with all the riders on having their horses in front of the leg and seemed to be quite successful in improving their way of going (no rollkur involved), so I don't think I agree about her leg and back position.

I also don't think I agree that rollkur is equated with learned helplessness as such. Any training technique in a sport that involves sitting on an animal and communicating via a metal bit in its mouth can be used to create learned helplessness while some rollkur horses are clearly not suffering from learned helplessness. Totillas certainly seems to be extremely happy and well adjusted as he seems to be able to do various movements with no rein at the end of his tests.
 
No offence taken at all!!! I would never be offended by anyone disagreeing with me, and thank you for taking the time to tell me all about your views!
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To be honest on that video I see a man trying mild rollkur without sufficient impulsion, and yes the horse goes tonnes better afterwards.

But I would say two things:
- this is not how Anky did the rollkur the one time I saw her at the BD convention. She rode Krack C with enormous impulsion in the rollkur and Sjef pointed out more than once that the rider has to have the horse really active from behind before they attempt rollkur. What I will agree with is that botched rollkur where the hand merely yanks the head in with no forwardness seems problematic as a training method because of the lack of impulsion.
- if rollkur is a training method then the horse does not need to display its best work in it. For example, I have a horse who is tight to one side and I sometimes do an exercise where he is in travers with too much inside flexion - I would not ride a test like this, but it is a way of suppling him up.

I do think that I am looking for something out of this that most people don't seem to need, which is fair enough. I just don't find that looking at Rollkur convinces me it is wrong, but if this is what it comes down to I think that is fair enough, some people will then think it is wrong and some will not.

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Then go and study a great master that rides properly...... Philippe Karl, Anja Beran to name but two, if you study the 'correct' way then maybe it will sink in how utterly atrocious rollkur is!!

The horse is meant to be ridden 'up' into a giving hand and the nose just in front of the vertical, if required then the horse can be allowed to stretch 'forward' and lower. Like this the horse can see, can breathe, and can swallow. Try looking at the correct way...anyone who understands this KNOWS beyond all doubt that rollkur is painful for the horse you don't need scientists.
 
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The rider is kicking you in the sides/ribs, you are responding and going forwards, but then the rider pulls you in the mouth hard... and leans back...(many pictures of Anky and others practically lying down doing this) your chin is pulled hard into your chest. your mouth hurts, your tongue is squashed, you hang it out the side (if you can) to escape the pain/squashing, you can't see where you are going, you can only see your own feet, you can't see anything else, you are totally dependant on the rider, you are full of fear, your back hurts, your hind legs cannot engage although the rider is jabbing and kicking at you. You start to sweat, full of tension, your neck hurts so badly, the nuchal ligament is breaking half way down your neck, it hurts, you try desperately to please, you cannot swallow,masses of foam escapes from your mouth, this rider on your back that causes so much pain, you know if you perform you will get let free from this pain. Learned helplessness.

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I think we may have to disagree onthis one, as I haven't seen Anky either kick or lean back. I am not her relative, friend or particular advocate of hers, but when I have seen her ride and train she has always shown an effective, subtle leg and a straight back. If anything when she did the demo at BD, a well known british rider appeared to be holding onto his horse with the reins, aptly demonstrated when Anky told him to give away his inside hand and then he could not even do a 20m circle in working trot. She worked with all the riders on having their horses in front of the leg and seemed to be quite successful in improving their way of going (no rollkur involved), so I don't think I agree about her leg and back position.

I also don't think I agree that rollkur is equated with learned helplessness as such. Any training technique in a sport that involves sitting on an animal and communicating via a metal bit in its mouth can be used to create learned helplessness while some rollkur horses are clearly not suffering from learned helplessness. Totillas certainly seems to be extremely happy and well adjusted as he seems to be able to do various movements with no rein at the end of his tests.

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You need to look at all the videos on you tube, there are plenty of Anky and others riding in extreme rollkur, as was discussed in many threads/posts on this subject a couple of months ago. Go find them.
 
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To be honest Booboos, and don't take offence at this, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince anyone. I feel that either people are going to believe what they are told because they want to believe that this is OK. Or they are going to believe what they see, and be brave enough to question what "top" riders do, and what has been accepted as excellence for too long.
Bearing in mind that this is just what is done when the horses and riders are in the public eye. I have friends who have worked with some of these top riders, one with Anky, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
If this is what has to be done to get to the top, then it's just not worth it.

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lovely post...so agree with you.
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I agree we should all watch as many of the great horsemen (and women) as we can and I find it fascinating to see people ride and train (as often as I can given that I have a full time job, 4 horses and I am just a crappy amateur rider!).

Out of interest, have you ever ridden a rollkur horse to see what it feels like? Have you ever had a lesson from a rollkur trainer? I entirely appreciate you would not train that way, but did you try it once while making your mind up?
 
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Out of interest, have you ever ridden a rollkur horse to see what it feels like? Have you ever had a lesson from a rollkur trainer? I entirely appreciate you would not train that way, but did you try it once while making your mind up?

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We all know it's wrong to beat a horse into submission, doesn't mean we should all go and try it first before making our minds up!

It's common sense that rollkur is cruel. Look at the eyes of horses ridden in rollkur then look at the eyes of one of Anja Beren's horses. Totally different.

BB, are you just playing devil's advocate or do you genuinely believe that rollkur is a correct and fair way to train a horse? Because if it's the latter, I think you're a bit of a lost cause! How can you honestly say that you can't say rollkur is wrong until you've tried riding your horse in that manner or been for a lesson?

And re. the lessons... I used to have lessons with a dressage trainer when I was down south who wanted all of her pupil's horses ridden like that. It's horrible. The tin hat on it for me was when I got a new horse (the big IDxTB I have now, in my sig) and he'd been off work for 6 months. I'd had him a week or two and I had a lesson. I said to her that he was unfit, I just wanted to do half an hour max, and that I wanted to stick in walk with maybe a little bit of trot. She, on the otherhand, wanted him worked "deep and round", as she so eloquently called it, in trot, for the entire half an hour. I kept asking for breaks and she said no, work him harder, make him do it, faster, harder, rounder, deeper. He was nearly dead by the end of the session! Knowing what I know now, I feel ashamed that I didn't stop the session myself or ask her to explain herself, but at the time I thought she must know best because of who she is. I won't say who it was or who she trains with, but suffice to say I never went back to her.

So in my case, I'm ashamed to say that yes I have tried it and would never again. It feels totally wrong.
 
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I agree we should all watch as many of the great horsemen (and women) as we can and I find it fascinating to see people ride and train (as often as I can given that I have a full time job, 4 horses and I am just a crappy amateur rider!).

Out of interest, have you ever ridden a rollkur horse to see what it feels like? Have you ever had a lesson from a rollkur trainer? I entirely appreciate you would not train that way, but did you try it once while making your mind up?

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No, No an No.
 
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We all know it's wrong to beat a horse into submission, doesn't mean we should all go and try it first before making our minds up!

BB, are you just playing devil's advocate or do you genuinely believe that rollkur is a correct and fair way to train a horse? Because if it's the latter, I think you're a bit of a lost cause! How can you honestly say that you can't say rollkur is wrong until you've tried riding your horse in that manner or been for a lesson?


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Funnily enough I try all my whips on myself so that I have a sense of how much they hurt.

I didn't actually say any of those things. I said that I had not made my mind up about Rollkur, that a lot of people seemed to be convinced it was wrong, could they let me know their grounds for thinking so. The rest is up to people who were kind enough to respond and let me know their thoughts for which I am very grateful.

I also did not say that you can't know Rollkur is wrong until you have tried it. I simply asked if another poster had indeed tried it.

On the trying something issue, I will say that although not necessary, it would seem to me wise to try something before rejecting it. If nothing else, it will confirm one's suspisions of how horrible it is. Personally I find it easier to feel things with horses than see them (my shortcoming, I know) so I was interested in anyone who may have ridden a rollkur horse and their experiences.

If the main argument against Rollkur is that it evidently looks wrong, trying it, to confirm one's first impressions, seems to me the reasonable next step.
 
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On the trying something issue, I will say that although not necessary, it would seem to me wise to try something before rejecting it. If nothing else, it will confirm one's suspisions of how horrible it is. Personally I find it easier to feel things with horses than see them (my shortcoming, I know) so I was interested in anyone who may have ridden a rollkur horse and their experiences.


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Ok, so to answer that question, I suppose you could say I did ride it, or attempt to, thanks to the "trainer" I mentioned. And it's horrible, whether you call it rollkur, hyperflexion, or deep and round. It's all about getting the horse to give in. Riding it forwards constantly with more leg, more again, more again, and holding the horse in so much in front that it hurts your arms. If it hurts my arms, can you imagine how the horse's mouth feels?
 
So....Booboos have you looked up all the videos of Anky on you tube riding in extreme rollkur??, there are plenty of them,
so then you can give me your opinions, when you are a little more informed, as you seem to think Anky doesn't do this.
 
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So....Booboos have you looked up all the videos of Anky on you tube riding in extreme rollkur??, there are plenty of them,
so then you can give me your opinions, when you are a little more informed, as you seem to think Anky doesn't do this.

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I can sense some frustration from you, but I am not entirely sure I deserve it.

Let me be more precise then. I have seen Anky ride:
- at the BD convention 2006, Krack C in Rollkur, Painted Black conventional
- two DVDs, one a training one of her methods, another of her tests.
- I found the following videos on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOPmj-j9U24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE (seems same as above but without text)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgERSFTWvVA (seems identical to above but without text)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irvXdYzFLis (seems to be from the same session, but with bizarre music and added stills)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moTxBLAEh...=PL&index=5

Just on the question of A's position, I do not see her kicking or using her leg excessively - the horse seems very sensitive to her leg aids. I don't see her leaning back either, she has a strong half-halt and you can see that once with Bonfire.

On the last video: the claim is the horse can't see, but seems to be working in with 5-6 other horses and white boards without crashing into anything. Also, the video claims the horse is on the forehand, but it looks to me like it has very elevated shoulders.

Having said all this, I am not a dressage judge or trainer, and I have a very poor eye when it comes to the technicalities of a horse's way of going.
 
Thanks for the vids.

The first one hardly shows A riding at all (a tiny bit in the middle and the last section is a repeat of the other vids of Bonfire). It also makes some claims I am not at all sure about. It claims Rollkur leads to the development of bone (evidence? how many horses examiined? control group?), and that this is like arthritis in humans (why? where is the inflammation, tiredness, fever? why is the creationg of new bone like arthritis?) and that R produces excessive salivation (it may well do, they offer no evidence either way, but even if it does what is wrong with that?).

Second vid is the short Bonfire clip that seems to be repeated everywhere.

Third vid ditto

I think our posts may have crossed on this one, as these are the vids I found.

Thanks for the vid of Anja Beran. I had not come across this rider before, which country does she compete for? I will look out for her, I am sure she does a lovely GP test. Can't see much from the vid as parts of the horse are obscured by the banner, and she is only showing isolated movements. She is also showing movements that appear to suit the type of horse she is riding, e.g. there are no extended paces and the half-pass on the bay looks harried and without sufficient sideway movement. Her position looks very upright, very balanced, not sure I like the way her legs stick out.

But again, just being nit-picky without having much experience and never having ridden anywhere near that level myself!
 
Absolutley not in defence of rollkur.

we pull horses heads to stop - but watching a rider pulling a bolting horse USING ALL THEIR WEIGHT and leaning backward is neither correct, pretty or safe for the rider or horse.

the analogy I use is in the context that you dont have to be a scientist to know what your seeing is wrong - it 'offends the eye.'

In training - Watching the eyes of the horse, the nostrils the tight chins , swishing tails, flattened ears, irregular steps, shying, bucking, little rears/lifts, tongue poking, lipping, chewing, excessive and no saliva - tells a story...

again you dont have to be a scientist to know what you are seeing is wrong.

I am dissapointed in Dr Marlin (and I hold him in high regard) he does not quote evidence that is relative and balanced...in this I include reference to Dr Heuschmann , and the International Society of Equitation Scientists. How strange, how did he forget them?

Much of his income is derived form the sports horse sector.

The fact is this - Rollkur was meant/originated to have been used for a standing horse - a - stretch - and - release not a horse cantering or trotting etc. and NEVER released. and not for long periods of time - NEVER, NEVER , NEVER!

In 2008 when challenged by EPONA TV journalists ANKY declared that she had no idea how long she rode in Rollkur - "time flies when you are having fun" maybe 20 mins - may 40mins epona "1 hour?" "maybe responds Anky" " I DONT KNOW".

so add a little imagination...of what really happens at home and I imagine the horses are CONSTANTLY worked in Rolllkur!

I train remedial horses - In 2008 I was asked to retrain a Champion GP horse belonging to a SILVER MEDALIST RIDER, the horse had fusion of the neck due to overbent (all the vets know this!!) they see it all the while in top dressage / showjumping horses... He also had terrible conformation, flattened withers, an eye lower than the other, a leg lower than the other, cow hocks, under slung heel.. he was 12 yrs old.. and crippled.

Despite being allowed freedom 24 hours a day and re training and HUGE improvements - he was finally destroyed in the autumn when they found he had no cartiledge left in his hooves or leg joints..

work it out?!! this horse was always ridden in a deep and round outline - he had never lived out (before me) and always worked in a dressage type of training style...held in 'outline; arghhhhhhhh

Rollkur is out - there is NO evidence to support it at all - there is no benefical evidence for the horse - we know that sight is impeded when heads are held in, this is not safe - we know that tense behaviours have fear/flight associations...not safe, we know how much pressure a horse can bear on his head, 8ozs before the body starts to record stress levels...

enough said!

hope you are all signed up on the petition against rollkur with the FEI!
 
Videos.You tube.

S.O.S rollkur 1
S.O.S rollkur 2

Booboos I think that if you can't see the difference in the riding and the happiness of the horses between riders riding in rollkur/hyperflexion and classical riding like the video of Anja Beran, there is absolutely no hope for you.
 
I'm back, couldn't stay away.
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I do think that I am looking for something out of this that most people don't seem to need, which is fair enough.

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I think that I'm looking for more than you are.
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I am looking for a truly light and soft horse, lifted in the shoulder, working through their back, showing beautiful carriage and with the lightest of contacts. I am looking for something that looks joyful. I had glimpses of this with one of my horses before he had to retire, and I got there with the help of a classical trainer and an australian cowboy.
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In answer to another question, I haven't ridden a horse in Rolkur, I don't think I would have the strength and doubt I'd bring myself to do it, whoever was instructing me. However, as mentioned elsewhere, I used to go to a highly thought of dressage training venue for lessons. (Looking for what I said above, but I didn't find it there). After a change of instructor I had a lesson where I think with hinsight I was being instructed to ride with some sort of hyperflexion. The lesson went on, the reins got shorter and shorter, my arms felt as if they were being pulled out of their sockets. At the end the pony was flying around and people were clapping and I felt confused at the weight I was carrying. Went to the loos, contemplated what I had just done, cried, never went back. When I think of that poor pony's mouth, let alone the rest of his body, I wish I could turn back the clock. Knowing what I know now I would have been able to call a halt and intelligently discuss what was wrong. Then, I trusted the "experts".
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Thanks for the vids.

The first one hardly shows A riding at all (a tiny bit in the middle and the last section is a repeat of the other vids of Bonfire). It also makes some claims I am not at all sure about. It claims Rollkur leads to the development of bone (evidence? how many horses examiined? control group?), and that this is like arthritis in humans (why? where is the inflammation, tiredness, fever? why is the creationg of new bone like arthritis?) and that R produces excessive salivation (it may well do, they offer no evidence either way, but even if it does what is wrong with that?).

Second vid is the short Bonfire clip that seems to be repeated everywhere.

Third vid ditto

I think our posts may have crossed on this one, as these are the vids I found.

Thanks for the vid of Anja Beran. I had not come across this rider before, which country does she compete for? I will look out for her, I am sure she does a lovely GP test. Can't see much from the vid as parts of the horse are obscured by the banner, and she is only showing isolated movements. She is also showing movements that appear to suit the type of horse she is riding, e.g. there are no extended paces and the half-pass on the bay looks harried and without sufficient sideway movement. Her position looks very upright, very balanced, not sure I like the way her legs stick out.

But again, just being nit-picky without having much experience and never having ridden anywhere near that level myself!

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Anja Beran is a classical rider and trainer of horses, all different types, she does not compete.
Buy her book 'Classical schooling with the horse in mind' and educate yourself. It is an amazing book and learning tool, on how to train and ride classically.
 
Just a couple of odd points...

BB, you say you have never seen Anky lean back? I have seen her lean back plenty of times -- very noticeable. I do agree that she has an electric lower leg. Although this is largely irrelevant here, I wonder if anyone's noticed how 'unclassical' her lower leg position is (always off the horse, as opposed to on the horse). It does seem to be connected with the extreme sensitivity of her rides.

Your comment about the whips was rather unfortunate, though I'm sure it came across as worse than you intended (you try them on yourself to know how much they hurt? Surely you'd NEVER use a whip to hurt a horse! A whip is simply an additional aid, for added clarity / precision not for 'punishment')

No, I am afraid I strongly disagree with your suggestion that you need to try something before you claim it's wrong. I KNOW that using a system of ropes and pulleys to train a horse's front legs to be more expressive and higher in his extensions is WRONG. No need to try it in order to know.
 
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Your comment about the whips was rather unfortunate, though I'm sure it came across as worse than you intended (you try them on yourself to know how much they hurt? Surely you'd NEVER use a whip to hurt a horse! A whip is simply an additional aid, for added clarity / precision not for 'punishment')



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Just a quickie because I am in the middle of riding.

Of course I don't hit myself so that I know how hard to hit a horse to hurt it, I do it so that I know how hard NOT to hit a horse so that I do not hurt it. Unless you feel the effect the whip has on yourself and what different types of strokes do, how would you know to use it without hurting? I think that is fairly self-evident!
 
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Just a quickie because I am in the middle of riding.

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That made me laugh! Get a grip, riding is much more fun than discussion groups. I'm in the middle of working, which is a much better reason to be here.
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Just a quickie because I am in the middle of riding.

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That made me laugh! Get a grip, riding is much more fun than discussion groups. I'm in the middle of working, which is a much better reason to be here.
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I am obsessed clearly!

I've been working all day on a paper, and I need a distraction. When I get stuck with my main argument, I switch to HHO, let my mind wonder on something else, and the answer comes to me! So really my work should be paying me to be on here!
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OK, a few points together as the thread is getting long enough already:

- "offends the eye": loads of things offend a lot of people's eyes, some people are offended by hunting, others by dressage altogether, others by any use of the horse, not to mention being offended by people's religion, political views, lifestyle choices...the list is endless. I think the correct response to offence is to look away, mere offence is not reason enough to restrict other people's actions.

- Anky's position: OK let's accept it is not very good, I am not sure where the connection to Rollkur is now. We should be concerned to educate and train people to ride better but if there was a list of bad riders, quite a few people would be on it before Anky

- Anja Beran: I will happily buy her book and have a look but as this is going to take a bit of time could you summarize for us the arguments in it, esp with respect to what is wrong with Rollkur? I asked about her competing as it would be possible to find videos of her doing entire tests. Fair enough she does not compete - who has she trained? Do her pupils compete? Does she give demos or do clinics?

- "there is absolutely no hope for you": that sounds bizarrely like my mum...mum is this you?

- "sign the petition": I don't think I will, aside from anything else I don't think it will be very effective.


EDITED for typos!
 
I just googled Anja Beran and found her website. I have noting but admiration for this lovely rider, but just to make a point about how easy it is to pick holes in someone's riding from one photo or a short or edited video, here is a photo from her site:

http://www.anjaberan.de/index.php?eID=tx...b575515d228f32e

The horse looks pretty flat to me, and notice her 'broken' left wrist.
 
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- Anja Beran: I will happily buy her book and have a look but as this is going to take a bit of time could you summarize for us the arguments in it, esp with respect to what is wrong with Rollkur? I asked about her competing as it would be possible to find videos of her doing entire tests. Fair enough she does not compete - who has she trained? Do her pupils compete? Does she give demos or do clinics?

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Why does someone need to compete in order to be validated by you? Just because someone doesn't feel the need to ride the same test, day in day out, untli their horses are drilled to it, doesn't make them any less of a rider. And why should her pupils have to compete? Isn't it plausible that competing isn't the be all and end all you seem to think it is? Hasn't it occurred to you that some people train horses purely for the enjoyment of that and not so they can ride the same test on a competition day as 30 other people, in front of judges who prefer to mark a circus act higher than a correctly trained horse?
 
BB, yes when I commented on Anky's lower leg position (never said it's a 'fault', just that it's not traditional) I did add that it was largely irrelevant, but that I was mentioning it as something which did immediately spring to mind when thinking about her horses' sensitivity to the leg.

As for Anja Beran, she is very very famous here in Germany. I do think she does demos/clinics, yes.
 
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Why does someone need to compete in order to be validated by you? Just because someone doesn't feel the need to ride the same test, day in day out, untli their horses are drilled to it, doesn't make them any less of a rider. And why should her pupils have to compete? Isn't it plausible that competing isn't the be all and end all you seem to think it is? Hasn't it occurred to you that some people train horses purely for the enjoyment of that and not so they can ride the same test on a competition day as 30 other people, in front of judges who prefer to mark a circus act higher than a correctly trained horse?

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Excuse me? When did I say any of that?

I asked if she competes, if her pupils compete or if she does clinics to get a sense of who she is and what she does. I then found her website and posted another post to say that I had!
 
After two days, I think I had better draw this discussion to a close and say

many thanks to everyone who took the time to respond,

I still won't practice Rollkur, but mainly because I have no idea how to do it or whether it suits my horse,

it would be great to see some concerete evidence on what is wrong with it and I can't see why people who are against it would not support a move for studies and research into the topic (surely such studies will only strengthen their case),

I will not be signing any petitions to ban it as I can't see any evidence for doing so, or any evidence that might be presented with the petition to make it in the least effective,

and finally some people's dislike of Rollkur seems to spill over into dislike of those who ask about it which is just odd!
 
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