In favour of 'strong' bits...

I've not said it's wrong to ride in a mild bit, but I don't think there is enough understanding generally as to what constitutes a 'mild' bit and whether or not that bit suits the particular conformation of a horse's mouth.
Sooo, whilst a single jointed eggbutt may be comfortable in one horse's mouth it might be incredibly uncomfortable in the mouth of a horse with a low palate and fat tongue....
It's wrong to assume that all bits are equally severe or mild in all horse's mouths and for this reason it's wrong to suggest that all horses should go well in a snaffle or that the schooling of horses of people who use 'severe' bits is defective in some way.
 
I think anyone who considers a jointed bit to be kind should lay it over their inner forearm and pull. That's what my Instructor did to me and I was absolutely horrified. The mark it left stayed for two hours
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My mare goes beautifully in a kimblewick, she has very little room in her mouth and hates pressure on her tongue. It suits her so that's fine.

I do find it so frustrating when you see a horse obviously unhappy in a snaffle, but whose owners feel it is cruel to use anything else.
 
I see your point, I say a bit is only as harsh as the hands that use it in my opinion.

Of course we all try to train and encourage our horses to a have nice mouth but unfortunately we don't all have the pleasure (or perhaps not the pleasure depending on which way you look at it) of bitting and schooling and developing a horse from scratch, a mouth is what you make it as some might say, but then again one horse may of been passed around various owners who ride with very different hands! and a perfectly schooled horse who is extremely soft in the showring/dressage etc might turn into a fire breathing dragon on the hunting field!...I had one loll!

So yes, our poor horses mouths go through a lot when you think about it. Its quite scary!
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Ummm... I think a vital thing to remember when people dismiss hauling on a mild bit in favour of riding 'lightly' in a strong bit is that there can be a very dangerous illusion going on. To illustrate:

Mild bit (for argument's sake, a double-jointed snaffle)
1-2lb of rein pressure = 1-2lb of pressure on the bars/tongue: light handed
10lbs of rein pressure = 10lbs of pressure on the bar/tongue: heavy-handed
20lbs of rein pressure = 20lbs of pressure on the bar/tongue: hauling

Bit with 2" levers (typical of most gags, kimblewicks, pelhams)
1-2lb of rein pressure = approx. 4-8lb of pressure, majority to fulcrum (bars/tongue): light handed
10lb of rein pressure = approx. 40lbs of pressure etc.: heavy-handed
20lb of rein pressure = approx. 80lbs of pressure, equivalent to very small adult: hauling
<font color="#666666">Note above that I'm assuming that the rider is using the bottom hole of a typical example of one of these bits. For reins on a rounding between bottom and next hole up, it would produce roughly triple the force exerted, and for reins on the middle hole it will produce around double the force exerted. </font>

The crucial point is that most stronger bits rely on leverage to allow the rider to exert greater pressure with more ease. The reality is that a rider may feel as if they are riding with a 'light' hand but the levers multiply their force manifold and actually they may be exerting as much, if not more pressure than they would ever (be physically able to) exert with a snaffle. So whilst we can roughly see how gentle a snaffle-user is being just by looking, lever-bits can create an awful illusion of gentle or moderate hands and all the while in the horse's mouth the bit is busy 'hauling' away.

I am not trying to say here that every horse can/will/should/must go in a snaffle, nor that I can somehow bit a horse perfectly or that Snaffle is God, and all else must be smelted. What I am arguing against is that 'illusion' - "I can ride my horse with only half the force in this stronger bit!" (Well, yes, but this bit multiplies your efforts by four, so actually you're pulling on the horse's mouth twice as hard!) I'm also not suggesting that those who ride in strong bits are somehow terrible, evil people, but what I don't like is to carry on reproducing the myth that riding 'lightly' in a strong bit is always better than hauling on a snaffle because, depending on the bit in question and on the rider's version of 'light' then the sad truth is that sometimes it really isn't. The whole point of this post (in case it's gotten lost, which I suspect it may have) is that it is immensely important not to get swept up in the 'I can ride without hauling/with light hands in this bit' because it is doubtful that the horse has overnight changed the nerves in its mouth (though I whole-heartedly agree that finding a bit that sits comfortably in the horse's mouth can cause a huge improvement by itself). What I am trying to say is that there is a chance that rather than the bit being milder to the horse's mouth, it may well be that the reins are simply being milder to the rider's hands.
 
As someone who rides in a myler comfort snaffe, no nose band and washing line reins when hacking solo and then has a myler combination bit for riding out with anyone else I can say I am not against the use of severe bit, my girl would be totally out of control (and very dangerous with it) if she didn't have a stonger bit in when in company. She was competed in an American gag though this was before the invention of myler combination bits
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I think there are bit's out there that can be classified as harsh and bits that can be called mild however there are so many bit's that fall into the grey area that no one can really judge. I think adults should be able to choose a bit that suite both horse and rider with professional guidance if needed.

My issue is with people who not only ride in 'strong' bits and then also ride with hard hands. I've seen many showjumper riding in frankenstein style bits but they barely move their hands, then you see some riding in 3 loop snaffles (not so severe in my book) and they saw the mouth off the poor horse. Kids on ponies that are just to strong for them should not be given bits that have curb chains and pole pressure then be allowed to saw, yank or sock and horse in the mouth, if they really can't control the pony they shouldn't damn well have it. My pony was very strong showjumping and I was allowed a pelham with loose curb chain and watched like a hawk, I have never been taught to saw a horse in the mouth. In case of emergency I have used the odd yank but never in a SJing arena.

Phew that turned out to be much longer than I expect...to summarise, I wouldn't let my kids use a strong bit without traing (and the fear of being beaten for hurting the pony
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It's all well and good you knowing all this stuff (in fact, I'm delighted you DO know it) but you're applying science to horses and horses are NOT scientific creatures. A horse will either go well or not in a specific bit . If Antifaz, for example is putting his head down, snatching at the bit, hard to stop AND opening his mouth wide in a french link, then I take that to mean it's both ineffective AND uncomfortable. If I put him in a kimblewick and he gets ridiculously behind the leg AND he bucks me off, then clearly he doesn't like that. If he's light in front, doesn't snatch and I can control him with a squeeze in a dutch gag... then thats the bit I'm going to use regardless of how many lbs of leverage it uses compared to the kimblewick or the snaffle.
I DO agree though that not enough people know HOW bits work in order to make an educated decision as to which they should use, and plenty of others THINK they are far more knowledgeable than they really are.
 
PF I know you didn't say its "wrong" to ride in a "mild" bit, I just get a bit fed up with everyone jumping on the same bandwaggon on this forum so thought I'd even out this thread a bit (groan at pun) by posting to remind people of the train of thought that says “as mild as possible please.” I think too many people jump on concepts like this without fully understanding how a bit works, its purpose, their horse’s mouth, their own hands and riding style, balance, the horse’s personality and way of going etc etc etc… That is why I used speech marks around “Harsh” and “Mild”. I think bits are a more complicated subject than saddles, and would go so far as to say I with there were the equivilant of saddle fitters for mouths – ones that aren’t employed by a particular brand!
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I have no doubt that mild for one horse and rider combination may be torture to another, but I do generalize to some extent on the mild/harshness of a bit if you make the (albeit massive and unlikely) assumption that all other factors are equal and standard; so for example, all other things being equal I would class a loose ring French link as milder than a single jointed snaffle. As I say, I do understand that there is a lot more to it than that, but I have found I haven’t gone far wrong in starting with a French link and working from that – if it didn’t suit the horse’s mouth shape, or if the horse didn’t like stainless steel etc etc I would change the bit, but if it simply didn’t respect the bit I would do my best to school it better before going to a bit with more action of some description. Hope that makes sense?!

I fully understand that a “harsh” bit can be milder than a traditionally assumed “mild” bit on the right horse and rider combination. IMO it is the exception to the rule, but I am speaking in general terms not aiming it at anyone in particular.

I’m sorry if I came across as assuming that all bits are equally as severe or mild in all horses’ mouths, and I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that the schooling of horses or people who use 'severe' bits is defective in any way, I merely wanted to put forward the point of view that I would always rather work towards the correct, safe and happy use of a “mild” bit for any horse, rather than use a “harsh” bit. Quite what defines a mild or severe bit does, as you quite rightly point out, ultimately depend on the individual horse and rider.
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The correct bit for any horse/rider combination is, a bit that can hold the horse without a tug of war whilst remaining comfortable for the horse, whatever bit that might be.
 
So we agree that there's not enough understanding of how bits work and far too many people follow trends or are influenced by the general 'perception' of a bit (eg: snaffle good, pelham BAD) rather than the individual considerations of horse and rider?
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So we agree that there's not enough understanding of how bits work and far too many people follow trends or are influenced by the general 'perception' of a bit (eg: snaffle good, pelham BAD) rather than the individual considerations of horse and rider?
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definetly agree with that, we had one livery who always dissaproved of pickle not wearing a snaffle, instead she rode her horse in a hanging cheek snaffle pulled it into an "outline" constantly and then let it bomb round jumps dangerously. She and her daughter fell off a lot jumping, pickle never had me off jumping!
 
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you're applying science to horses and horses are NOT scientific creatures...

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Umm, small point but I'm applying science to bits, and the things that they act upon, mouths, which unfortunately are scientific objects and the effects on them can be measured in terms of damage, pressure, etc. But I understand what you mean.

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If Antifaz, for example is putting his head down, snatching at the bit, hard to stop AND opening his mouth wide in a french link, then I take that to mean it's both ineffective AND uncomfortable.

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Which was sort of my point about horses being more comfortable in some bit-shapes/sizes/types than others, but I backgrounded it with parentheses so it was easy to miss.

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If he's light in front, doesn't snatch and I can control him with a squeeze in a dutch gag... then thats the bit I'm going to use regardless of how many lbs of leverage it uses compared to the kimblewick or the snaffle.

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And again, my point wasn't how much force is actually being exerted (though that is a very real concern, obviously), it was that some riders might think 'Aha! This bit works with so little effort!' and from this deduce that it is just as gentle on the horse as it is on their hand, and extend that to thinking that a yank is no harder on the mouth than on their hand, unaware that a 50lb jab from an angry male rider can readily equate a 200lb blow to the horse's jaws. The fact that riders should be aware (as you are) of the huge effect of leverage, not only to produce far more force, but to do so at much less effort on the rider's part, is the thing I was driving at and if a rider is aware of it then it seems a reasonable (though not foolproof) assumption that they will be wary and respectful of it. The idea that people ride in those types of bits with no comprehension of what they're capable of just makes my blood run cold.
 
all horses have differing confo and go differently and therefor need to be bitted accordingly i hate seeing someone ripping and fighting at a horses mouth, shouting at someone on the ground as they go past (at 600mph coz the horse is numb from all the pulling and hoikin) "o yes hes always gone in a snaffle" (doesnt make sense and ruins horses mouths)!!!
 
I think Chillidragon has a really interesting point, and one i would be inclined to go with. I strongly believe that each horse is an individual, and i wouldnt dream of commenting on what someone else uses unless i had actually ridden the horse myself and knew whether or not it 'worked'.

I ride both mine in a french link snaffle at the moment - my 5 year old who I started in this bit and have had no problems with, and my Section B gelding who has a tiny mouth and god forbid anyone put a single jointed bit in his mouth!! My B will go in a pelham if he is to do anything remotely exciting, but for day to day hacking and schooling the french link is fine for him.

To be honest I have taught my youngster right from the start to listen to my other aids (as i'm sure everyone does!) and even x-country schooling when she got a bit excitable and strong, she would slow up just by me sitting up and using my weight as opposed to hauling on her mouth - this is the way i would ideally like to keep things....but you never know i may end up using something a little stronger in time...
 
Many people presume a snaffle is the mildest bit there is - wrong! It has a nutcracker action therefore it isn't!

Although it greatly depends on who is holding the reins!
 
I am in total agreement with you PapaFrita. My very heavy cob is fab in an English hackamore. Light as a feather, stops on a sixpence. We have no arguments. I do not get yanked out of the saddle.I use the lightest touch and we ride almost western, and he neck reins too.
Yes, he will go in a french link snaffle and has too for Dressage but it doesn't take him long to find out he is boss.
Control, firm but fair is an important safety feature I would not want to be without.
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Have always ridden my horse with a french link or lozenge as he has a low palate and a single jointed bit jabs him.

He went well in a mullen mouth pelham, not so well in a kimblewick. OKish in a mullen mouth snaffle.

He goes best in a NS universal lozenge on the top rein/snaffle fitting. I cant understand his choice when he could have a mullen mouth snaffle, but I have to do what is more comfortable for him.
 
i rode an ex racer years ago. none of the other girls at work would hack him out as he used to bolt.
i took him out in a snaffle bridle and a german hackamore. i mainly rode with the snaffle rein but i had my 'brakes' there if i had needed it. we would canter so steadily down the beach even the ponies were over taking lol if i hadn't have had those brakes he would've just taken off.
 
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The correct bit for any horse/rider combination is, a bit that can hold the horse without a tug of war whilst remaining comfortable for the horse, whatever bit that might be.

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Seconded
 
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It's all well and good you knowing all this stuff (in fact, I'm delighted you DO know it) but you're applying science to horses and horses are NOT scientific creatures. A horse will either go well or not in a specific bit . If Antifaz, for example is putting his head down, snatching at the bit, hard to stop AND opening his mouth wide in a french link, then I take that to mean it's both ineffective AND uncomfortable. If I put him in a kimblewick and he gets ridiculously behind the leg AND he bucks me off, then clearly he doesn't like that. If he's light in front, doesn't snatch and I can control him with a squeeze in a dutch gag... then thats the bit I'm going to use regardless of how many lbs of leverage it uses compared to the kimblewick or the snaffle.
I DO agree though that not enough people know HOW bits work in order to make an educated decision as to which they should use, and plenty of others THINK they are far more knowledgeable than they really are.

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I think chillidragon's point was this is often the part of leverage bits people seem to not want to know. Force and leverage may be scientific concepts but that doesn't change the reality that the POINT of leverage bits is to produce more force on the horse with less effort from the rider. This may, in fact be what's needed - it may allow the rider to use a more precise aid, stay better in balance, and release more quickly - but one can't argue with the fact of it just because one doesn't like to think of oneself as applying force to the horse.

Of course bits are tools, designed to work to a specific end in certain situations.

I think the problems can start, however, when people don't understand how the bit functions, what result they are looking for, what the possible downsides of a particular approach might be (EVERYTHING that has an effect can have a positive OR negative effect), and what might be causing the problem in the first place. A horse might be strong because it's excited, because it wants its own way, because its scared, because its confused/ill trained, because it hurts, the rider is overmounted - all sorts of reasons. It's all very well to say "strong it strong, it needs to be fixed" but those motivators don't just go away because you get better brakes.

And it isn't just what works, it's what works in the long haul and, hopefully what goes some way to fixing the underlying issue.

I've just seen so many people "move up a bit", think everything's sorted then have to move up again . . . eventually finding themselves out of options, with a horse that's too strong to ride.

This does NOT mean "stronger" bits are "cruel", it merely means one cannot pick only the effects and consequences one wants. Like everything else in life.

Bits are also as much for people as for horses. Riders tend to want horses to feel a certain way (sometimes they even ride subconsciously to produce the effect, even if it's negative) and bit them until they get what they want. Someone else might ride the same horse in a completely different set up and be perfectly happy.

I also think (as I said on the other thread) there is a BIG difference between using a piece of equipment to establish an immediate, specific, subtle response in a competitive/stressful situation on a horse that *can* do the work anyway but needs a reminder or a different tool to excel, and using it for basic brakes or steering. I know many good competition horses that go to the ring in quite complicated get ups but school at home in snaffles of some descriptions or that are "bitted up" for a weak owner but work perfectly well in less for the trainer or another rider.
 
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Well, there's a good example; the myler combination is absolutely ineffective with PF. She gets heavy on the forehand and steering is VERY fuzzy. She goes much better in a happy mouth snaffle. Horses, eh?
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I'm now starting to think my idea that the myler combination is very strong may be overstated! Seems like most poeple put it in the grey area
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it works for my girly so that's all that matters. I tried her in one of those lozenge bits after hearing how fantastic they were and she point blank refused to take a contact, goes to show how fickle they all are. The bit bank is definitely the way to go, imagine how many bits you could go through to find the right one for horse and rider!
 
I forgot
As you said PF, it's not all about stopping.
First question a rider shoud ask is: What do I want from my horse? What do I want my horse to do?
Stopping? Collecting? Good Steering? Easy contact? Smooth canter and approach to the fence? Etc..., etc...
Well, must use what is most appropriate and suits him best, and is most comfortable with.
It's true and, I see a lot of unexperienced and/or lazy riders pretending to replace training with other tools. It's worrying.
Nothing replaces good training.
 
My horse does like to go in a snaffle, this is what he prefers and goes best in after lots of trying of different bits.
However my old horse came in a snaffle and she was not happy, she went best in a 3 ring gag and i preferred this for the reasons PF said.
each to their own!
every horse is different and its a case of finding what works for them
 
My main horse goes in a snaffle for everything (including XC) - however it is a Myler one, I dont like jointed snaffles. Personally Id always try a new horse in a snaffle first and only then move onto something else if I really felt it necessary. I think all horses should be started in snaffles. There's quite a few types of snaffles nowadays so I think its a bit weird to wipe out all snaffles simply because one doesnt go well in one type.
 
To be perfectly honest, it's kinder to use a gentle squeeze on a gag/pelham than to be sawing wildly in a snaffle.
I can understand why we perceive the snaffle as being the most gentle bit, but if it is having to be used in a strong way then obviously it is more aggresive than a slightly stronger bit.
A youngish horse I am riding at the moment started of in a jointed eggbutt, then went to a french link eggbutt, we then added a flash and have now moved up to a hanging cheek <u>with</u> the flash. She is still very strong and fast, so we may move up a notch bitwise, and then maybe change noseband, but are at the moment trying to slow her down throught schooling. I believe that this is how we should bit all horses, start off in a "gentle" bit and work our way up if needbe.
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There's quite a few types of snaffles nowadays so I think its a bit weird to wipe out all snaffles simply because one doesnt go well in one type.

[/ QUOTE ]To put it mildly. To my understanding snaffles can vary by:

- Thickness (thin, medium and thick)
- Material (rubber, plastic, sweet iron, steel, nickel etc.)
- Shape (curved, straight, twisted etc.)
- Joints (straight-bar, single, double, chain etc.)
- Rings (eggbutt, loose-ring etc.)

If we take only these possibilities alone (and I certainly haven't covered them all) then there are no less than at least 360 different kinds of snaffle out there, and I'm willing to bet that this is a very modest estimate. What makes me worried is that when the bit doesn't seem to fit the inside of the horse's mouth, owners sometimes seem blinded by alterations on the parts that go outside of the horse's mouth (levers, extra holes, chin-straps, whatever) so that the mouth-part may be entirely unaltered but the force exerted on the horse increased exponentially. Also, the issue of mouth conformation/comfort seems to get frustratingly mixed up with 'braking' and 'steering' and the phrase 'my horse goes well in this bit' (whatever 'well' means) doesn't clearly distinguish between whether the horse does a handstand-halt at the lightest twitch of the reins, or whether the horse is actually genuinely comfortable in that bit. It doesn't seem rocket science that what is most comfortable for the horse is exactly the type of bit that doesn't exert much/any force whatsoever, so it seems odd that riders often upgrade bit-severity (sometimes in a giant leap) and when they find their work cut in half, take this to mean that their horse somehow finds having a 30kg vice-grip on their jaw 'more comfortable' than the previous, milder bit.
 
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