In need of some inspiration schooling...

[Twiglet]

My 6 year old is only just about balanced/strong enough now to be doing walk to canter and simple changes in a figure of 8....I have a feeling that at 4 he'd have fallen flat on his face, especially in a 20m x 40m.

His canter has taken a long time to come together - riding in a 20m x 40m for the first year or so was like steering a cruise ship. Now he's stronger and able to sit and balance it's a lot more rideable but it's been a long road!

I'd go with what Kerrili said - get the walk and trot strong to build his balance in the school, and do your cantering in straight lines on hacks. Get him sharper with lots of transitions, and keep the canter work short and sweet.

 

[kirstykate]

Oh I agree the dressage yards can be just as bad, they even do sitting trot on just backed 3yo's!!! Always horrified at that, plus they all start napping when asked to go into the menage at one dressage yard i know... wonder why huh!!
I'm talking about producing a balanced, responsive, through sports horse that can perform amd stay sound for a very long time with the rigours of three day eventing which is what I assumed the OP was aiming for with her 4yo. anyway off tangent there sorry generally a young 'event bred' horses won't have the natural sit of a show jump bred youngster at 4 hence why it would be harder to achieve the exercises you set out. All horses are different and need taking at different speeds, generally show jumpers produce them thick & fast to sell jumping fox hunters at 5 where as an event horse is produced far slower normally BE100/novice at 5

Very true, I often think that we push youngsters far to much in this country, there is an awful lot we could learn from the continent.

 

[kirstykate]

Mine did a bloody good bit of passage this morning when I turned him out and he realised the cows had changed fields so they are now next to his! He show jumped to 1.40 level as a youngster abroad but now events. He does do changes, but they are usually always late behind, which makes him unbalanced and panic. However that may well be my incompetence at not riding proper changes! I have been told by various people who have taught m, all of whom teach to international team level, that I'm better off coming back and changing through a couple of strides of trot, than panicking and unbalancing the horse.

There is always one What sensible trainers you have

 

[Santa_Claus]

Please come meet my horse who regularly passages piaffes and does a cracking extended trot in the field oh and pirouettes sliding stops and a terrific snorting dragon impression sadly no Olympic medals for that!!

 

[kerilli]

I would say most dressage horse wouldn’t achieve much of a standard jumping even with all the retraining in the world but with less effort a horse with a good solid jumping background will achieve a better level in the dressage arena As for the damaging effect take all the un-natural movements dressage horses are asked to perform, they have no long lasting effect? Ive never seen a horse piaffe, passage, over exaggerated extend trot, half pass, while playing free in the fields with there mates! Although I have seen them jump, change, buck, canter and trot naturally while playing in the fields smiling and happy moving free with there mates And we haven’t even got to training methods to achieve such over exaggerated and false movements but as said already horses for courses.

I know of a youngish dr horse which was working at Medium dressage, swapped yards, swapped jobs, and went to proper international GP SJ in 2 years...
I doubt many have gone the other way, for lots of reasons, one being that once the canter has been wrecked and become 4 time I don't think a dressage career will ever beckon for a SJer. You can't easily reconnect it again...

I have seen horses piaffe and passage a LOT (especially foal-proud mares, stallions, colts, mares in season, foals etc) in fields. Extended trot - yes, although usually they go into canter, but I've seen it in horses that just prefer to trot. No reason why a horse would do a half-pass on its own, but I've seen full-pass down the fenceline, and also VERY impressive canter pirouettes from more than 1 horse. Also tempi changes on more than 1 occasion, incl a foal doing tempis.
but all that is beside the point. just because a horse can do them at liberty doesn't mean it can do them just as easily with at least 1/10 in addition to its own body weight, balanced (sometimes precariously) towards its front end. (and I bet only 1/2 of all riders are under 60kgs!) It takes literally years and years of patient consistent training to show a horse how to transfer the weight back and engage correctly.
i am genuinely shocked that anyone can really believe that you can start teaching changes (simple or flying) as soon as cantering under saddle is introduced.

 

[kirstykate]

I know of a youngish dr horse which was working at Medium dressage, swapped yards, swapped jobs, and went to proper international GP SJ in 2 years...
I doubt many have gone the other way, for lots of reasons, one being that once the canter has been wrecked and become 4 time I don't think a dressage career will ever beckon for a SJer. You can't easily reconnect it again...

I have seen horses piaffe and passage a LOT (especially foal-proud mares, stallions, colts, mares in season, foals etc) in fields. Extended trot - yes, although usually they go into canter, but I've seen it in horses that just prefer to trot. No reason why a horse would do a half-pass on its own, but I've seen full-pass down the fenceline, and also VERY impressive canter pirouettes from more than 1 horse. Also tempi changes on more than 1 occasion, incl a foal doing tempis.
but all that is beside the point. just because a horse can do them at liberty doesn't mean it can do them just as easily with at least 1/10 in addition to its own body weight, balanced (sometimes precariously) towards its front end. (and I bet only 1/2 of all riders are under 60kgs!) It takes literally years and years of patient consistent training to show a horse how to transfer the weight back and engage correctly.
i am genuinely shocked that anyone can really believe that you can start teaching changes (simple or flying) as soon as cantering under saddle is introduced.

Most of the time it is the rider which hinders the horse, famous old saying you brake more than you make Yogi Brisner agrees with us We spend time putting a mouth on the horse before the saddle is introduced, you have a mouth you have a brain

 

[kerilli]

Most of the time it is the rider which hinders the horse, famous old saying you brake more than you make Yogi Brisner agrees with us We spend time putting a mouth on the horse before the saddle is introduced, you have a mouth you have a brain

Oh really? I've heard "your first horse is your sacrificial horse" too, and I find that just as despicable an attitude to the poor horse you are sacrificing/breaking at the time.

I'm happy to say that I spend a lot more time making them, so that I don't break them. I know I'm not alone in that. My trainer would murder me if I tried to get an unbalanced youngster to do simple changes. In fact I let a world-class coach force one of my young horses to do simple changes once and that horse ground his teeth from that day onwards, never having done it before. Rushing the training wrecks horses.

Yogi agrees with you. Wow. Funny, where I stand, most people agree with Yogi...

What does putting a mouth on the horse have to do with introducing changes when the horse has only just started cantering under saddle? I don't care if you've long-reined it for a year and can do all sorts of snazzy things, once a rider is on board, expert or otherwise, the horse has to learn to rebalance itself. There is absolutely no way around that.
Horses have a brain already... I'm not sure what the mouth has to do with it.

 

[CaleruxShearer]

There is always one What sensible trainers you have

Yes, I really enjoyed the couple of lessons I had with Yogi actually!

 

[daffy44]

I produce my own dressage horses to a high level, i used to show jump, and i've worked for many years backing youngsters, i couldnt agree more with everything Kerilli has said. I hope the OP will follow her excellent advice.

 

[Maesfen]

Very true, I often think that we push youngsters far to much in this country, there is an awful lot we could learn from the continent.

Really?

 

[kerilli]

I'm as puzzled as you are Maesfen, because that's got to be the most contradictory post (in light of what she's said above) seen on here for a long time!

 

[PapaFrita]

I'm as puzzled as you are Maesfen, because that's got to be the most contradictory post (in light of what she's said above) seen on here for a long time!

I'm actually speechless. I don't even know where to start pointing out the inconsistencies in kirtykate's posts.

 

[nikkimariet]

Ive never seen a horse piaffe, passage, over exaggerated extend trot, half pass, while playing free in the fields with there mates!

I will get you a video of Fig being turned out in the morning

 

[Lolo]

Very true, I often think that we push youngsters far to much in this country, there is an awful lot we could learn from the continent.

Guessing this is sarcasm?!

With Reg, he really struggled with cantering for ages and Al pretty much left it to out hacking, and asking in the field so he wasn't contained and struggling- once he struck off there was loads of room to go for a bit until he was more mature and balanced. Now, his canter is his best pace!

 

[TarrSteps]

Very true, I often think that we push youngsters far to much in this country, there is an awful lot we could learn from the continent.

I'm assuming the winking smiley is there for a reason. Even people who are in favour of the Testing and auction systems will usually agree there is a high attrition rate and even horses that make it through okay need a period of recovery, even retraining after the fact.

I hate to say but there is no national (or disciplinary) monopoly on pushing horses, ruining horse, OR making nice horses correctly that can go on to do many jobs.

I would also disagree with the "jumping to dressage is more likely to work than vice versa". My experience is actually the opposite and I've had quite a few horses that had thrown in the towel jumping that went on to jump or be working hunters and positively shot up the grades as their flat work was so solid and they were physically strong. Equally, I've seen jumpers go the other way and if can be a great "retirement plan" for an older jumping horse that's lost the taste for the job through soundness problems etc.

The fact is well made horses will excel at any task for which they have ability. And horses with a lot of ability will overcome less than ideal preparation. In fact there is even a school of thought that if a horse does not succeed on the fast track, it's not made for the game and should go elsewhere. There is even something to that, although, of course, it's a less viable option for the one horse owner.

 

[TarrSteps]

Re changes . . .

In North American working hunters it's essential that a horse does a clean "auto change" to be competitive and this would be expected from 4 year olds on up. I have, indeed, encouraged well balance young horses with good canters (if they are not well balanced young horses with good canters they either need to wait or go do another job) to change like this within weeks of starting to canter as, in my experience and from the way I've been taught this very specific skill, it is actually harder to allow this to happen (notice the use of the phrase . . ) if the horse has been actively dissuaded from doing them for any length of time. There is a "window" where the concept of "this is the correct lead" is still fuzzy where it is very easy to allow the horse to make the change to keep his balance. There should be no flinging or rushing or manic rider behaviour.

BUT - and it's a big one - there are "auto changes" NOT "school flying changes". They look different, feel different, are done off a different aid (or not in the case of many established hunters) and serve a different purpose. They aren't the same AT ALL and cannot be compared. The fact that the horse ends up on the other canter lead is completely beside the point. Many horses actually learn both (and you see event horses that do auto changes when jumping, btw) but they learn them as distinct movements, ideally unrelated as that's where confusion sets in.

Re horses offering correct piaffe and passage . . .yes, some do. Just like some horses jump out of their paddocks. We don't "teach" them these things, we teach them when and how we want them done, and we develop the horse so it can do these things with a rider. No one takes a horse into a class the first time at the height its been free jumping! Good dressage trainers encourage a horse's natural aptitude, they don't force it to do something it's not physically capable of. I once heard someone ask Klaus Balkehnol how he introduces half steps - he said (more or less), "I take the young horses out hacking near feeding time and when we turn for home I close my hand and they offer a few steps because that's what comes naturally to them. Then the next day I do it again but I add the aid. Soon enough the horse has the basics down but I wait until he is physically ready to school the movement on command." Obviously there is some joking in this but really, this is the basis of great training, develop the horse using what it does "naturally" in a way that makes sense to it.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, OP!

 

[daisycrazy]

With regards the OP, I suggest some training books for inspiration. Christopher Bartle's Training the Sport Horse is excellent, comprehensive and readable and there are many other excellent training books available. Well worth buying one, or ideally several, and having a read. They will provide plenty of ideas and frameworks around which to base the training and development of your horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

Back to contribute something useful.

Chris Bartle's book is great and good value for money. Sally O' Connor (David's mum) has a very good book, ' Schooling Exercises' and there are a wealth of other ones, depending on your area of interest. The '101' books are very good for ideas presented in a useful, progressive way.

You Tube is also a great source and I think there are even a few apps kicking around now.

It's worth speaking to your instructor, too, and bringing a note pad along to your next lesson. For students I don't see that often, we'll discuss how to increase the difficulty of work we've covered in a lesson so they go away with a framework for progress.

 

[dominobrown]

I broke in pony for a lady which was a welsh d X cob. She was excellent in walk and trot but she really struggled with her canter. Her conformation and build meant she found it more or less impossible! So firstly I worked a lot on her walk and trot in the school and didn't canter her at all in the school (or much at all) until she was over 4.5 years old.With this horse and quite a few that we backed at work it was far easier to get them cantering in straight lines in a big space until they got the 'idea'. There is no point doing this however if you are going to be 1)Out of control, so it's no good for very sharp horses. 2) You go 'flat' out. Try and keep it as much as a 'school' canter a possible.

Likewise what kerelli said- Lots of lateral movements in walk. Its a bit like yoga for horse The other night I was doing travers in walk on an old adv med horse, asked for a trot trans afterwards, and wow I found a completely other 'trot' which was uphill and light and very rideable.
I found doing lots of lateral work in walk useful with babyish horses to as it really gets the 'moving away from leg' message through, helps bend and control of the shoulders etc. I would try leg yielding from the 3/4 line to the wall in walk then when you hit the wall (and you're straight) ask for a trot trans. This exercise can be done in trot and then asking for a canter trans at the wall to get an 'uphill' canter trans (when you progress enough).
Also back to what I was saying it don't worry too much about youngsters wanting to 'run' into the canter too much as the early stage, until they really get the idea of what a canter trans is. Its often the natural way horse go into canter and as their trot improves and balances in general they do less and less run strides. You may also find lightening your seat helps too.
Sorry for such a long post that basically is the same as everything kerelli said!

 

[McW]

I find in my youngster when we have a blip canter is the phase which is impacted the most, goes back 3 steps when everything else goes back 1. I believe in strong w,t work before asking the youngster to canter, we have a lovely w,t and our canter, well it's a bit hit and miss and certainly not pretty. We are more focussing on going forward and balanced, not worrying about where the head is right now.

 

[tristar]

i have young horse who can do a series of one time flying changes, gallop sideways and canter backwards and do fantastic extenteded trot, really lift his forehand and passages for fun, (no he's not for sale,) i think he must be a genius.!

 

[tristar]

forgot to say he does all that loose in the field.

i don't break until 4 years, then staightness and forwardness are my priority, the two are interlinked, i always start canter out in a field or hacking and never enter a school until the horse is ready for that stage, i think its normal for a horse to run into canter to start with, and essential that the rider is not impeding but helping the horse by correct use of the seat and soft hands.

i would never ask for flying changes until a horse can canter a full circle in counter canter, and always use counter canter in short bouts to prove how the canter is progressing, it is the barometer of and purifier of the true canter, but not until the horse is ready, all this takes a long time if done kindly.