In pain or taking the Mick?

little_critter

little_critter

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My mare has been planting when ridden for a few months now. Teeth and saddle were checked in feb (specifically asked the saddler about planting/ stuffiness) and there's no problems. She seems fit an well, no signs if lameness but is very stuffy. Plants a lot in the school (especially in the first 15 minutes). Plants when hacking alone, doesn't plant hacking in company but isn't as keen as she used to be. She will lead with no problems.
I've tried being firm & fair, I've tried nicey-nicey and I'm afraid to say I've lost it a few times and she still won't budge. The vet is coming out on Friday but if she doesn't find anything then I really don't know what to do.
 
How long have you had her? I think if you have had your horse for a long time your gut feeling is normally correct as you really do know your horse better than anyone else.

If the vet gives the all clear a few options (I am sure there are many others) are

1) get someone else to ride her in the school and see how she goes.
2) get soemone to video you riding her - when you watch it back make sure you haven't got into some habit that is making her unconfident
3) lunge her and see whether whether she looks uncomfortable

Good luck.
 
I would second the possibility of a bi-lateral lameness. My own mare planted, however, it only started once she was backed so initially it was thought that it was green-ness. She did stop with the planting, however would occasionally plant when going down hill. Now I know that suggests foot pain.... 18 months on she was lame with palmar foot pain/navicular syndrome.... Sorted now through a barefoot approach so not all doom and gloom!
 
alsxx said:
I would second the possibility of a bi-lateral lameness. My own mare planted, however, it only started once she was backed so initially it was thought that it was green-ness. She did stop with the planting, however would occasionally plant when going down hill. Now I know that suggests foot pain.... 18 months on she was lame with palmar foot pain/navicular syndrome.... Sorted now through a barefoot approach so not all doom and gloom!
Click to expand...

Hmmm very interesting. My own horse plants every now and then. I just turn him and walk him backwards. Turn him back in the direction I want to go and he will often continue to walk forwards although some times plants again and I have to repeat the process. They soon get fed up walking backwards. I use this approach if he naps at something he feels he can't possibly walk past, its a psychological tool which is very under rated but very very useful. I used to think that he was being naughty and I would tend to still agree with this as it is at certain places on our regular hacks, but it is interesting to note that following x-rays a year ago it was found that he has moderate to severe arthritis in his coffin joint............
 
Thanks for the replies - I thought my thread had fizzled out.
I've been experimenting:
Lead in hand = fine
Lunging / free schooling = fine (although does look like she's begrudging being worked)
Lead out to field = fine, hop on bareback halfway to field = plant.
I took her to an XC clinic on Tuesday (half expecting to have to pull out if she had a planting episode) but she loved it - was forward going, jumped everything (biggest jump was 2'6") and even had the energy for a few woo-hoo bucks.
I haven't had her in the school this week and will be hacking out with a friend this evening - but she doesn't usually plant in company.
Unfortunately this is starting to hint that she's taking the pi$$ - in which case I need some serious help because everything I've tried so far has failed - even tight circles to get her moving her feet...after a couple of circles she plants mid-turn too.
Vet still booked for tomorrow.
 
Tbh, just because she does some things and not others, doesn't rule out discomfort. I know a horse that does endurance and hunts with enthusiasm but no longer goes in the school because it's too hard on his hock arthritis and not worth the amount of management he needs when he can do his "real" jobs more comfortably otherwise.

I've also known many horses who have been "trained" out of their responses but have known or are subsequently diagnosed with a physical issue. It really isn't that cut and dried!

And - contentious idea here - I suspect a great many horses work with some sort of discomfort but are "managed" successfully by being ridden in a particular way. Hopefully the vet will have some ideas for you but it might be worth also getting the opinion of a good remedial trainer, not because you're sure the horse isn't hurting, but because a muti-pronged approach might be the way to go regardless.
 
Thanks TarrSteps, I didn't mention it before but I did wonder if she had a niggle that she was willing to work through for fun XC but really didn't see the point of schooling / hacking alone. (Just like if I have a sore knee I will still ride because I love it but I'll try to skive housework if possible!)
I didn't say it before because I've been accused in the past of anthropomorphising (sp?) my horse too much (giving her human feelings)
 
little_critter said:
Thanks TarrSteps, I didn't mention it before but I did wonder if she had a niggle that she was willing to work through for fun XC but really didn't see the point of schooling / hacking alone. (Just like if I have a sore knee I will still ride because I love it but I'll try to skive housework if possible!)
I didn't say it before because I've been accused in the past of anthropomorphising (sp?) my horse too much (giving her human feelings)
Click to expand...

TBH I think you're giving her human feelings by suggesting that she's taking the P1$$, horses do horse things and they always have a very good reason (to them) for doing things, maybe you're right with your theory of a niggle that she can ignore for the fun stuff or maybe she's lacks confidence hacking out on her own?
Let us know how you get on with the vet, I'd be interested to see what happens. :-)
 
maggiesmum said:
TBH I think you're giving her human feelings by suggesting that she's taking the P1$$, horses do horse things and they always have a very good reason (to them) for doing things, maybe you're right with your theory of a niggle that she can ignore for the fun stuff or maybe she's lacks confidence hacking out on her own?
Let us know how you get on with the vet, I'd be interested to see what happens. :-)
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Fair point...
Thing is that this is a behaviour that has developed. She used to hack out alone just fine but has been planting more recently. I'll let you know what the vet says.
 
A mare I had here who used to do this was found to have suspensory desmitis in the hocks. She was operated on and came sound. The planting stopped. I always suspect pain in these cases, but as this mare's lameness was bilateral and not in the slightest bit noticable until flexion tests were performed, we thought it was behavioural for a long time as even the vet had originally said she was sound. She progressed to rearing and falling over backwards. It was only when she started to lose her back end on the lunge that we got the vet out again and this time the condition was bad enough for him to detect it and send her to Rossdales.
 
Well the vet has been and can't find any physical cause for the planting. She pointed out that when in pain most horses show signs of stress or tension, mine is a picture of relaxation.
She trotted up and lunged (on surface & on hardstanding) absolutely fine and then demonstrated her planting when I got on.
Vet has taken bloods to check her liver issue hasn't re-occoured.
If the liver is all clear then the vet prescribes 3 weeks of hooning around like a kid so S can re-discover her inner pony!
I talked this over with my instructor and she said that rediscovering S's inner pony may fix the problem for a while but I do need to fix the problem in the school - again by keeping it fun and mixing things up but I can't avoid the school.
 
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So glad you've had blood tests done. Do make sure you ask for a copy of the complete blood report for yourself for reference (even if you don't yet know how to interpret it!).

Hopefully they will have included muscle enzymes in the profile and those could be really informative (AST, CK, LDH).

Is your horse planting like this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73446118/lameness summary video.wmv

This is what my boy Max has been doing. You will see on the video that some days he is better than others. There are days when he'll barely move without whip and spurs, but most days he is just generally reluctant.

We are eventually starting to get to the bottom of things (after having vets call him "strong-willed" and "stubborn". In fact, it turns out he has been amazingly tolerant, too tolerant, of all the work requests that he's been unable to fulfil.

Muscle enzymes were the clue for us, and I'm in the middle of supplementing with selenium in the hope/belief that a long term selenium deficiency has been the cause. I don't have conclusive evidence yet, but I'm hopeful.

I would disagree with your vet about horses showing tension/stress when in pain. Some horses can be particularly stoic and just appear "stubborn" when they are unable to do some work for us.

Hope the bloods point you in the right direction for whatever's wrong.

Sarah
 
Forgot to say, but if the muscle enzymes are even mildly elevated, then I would absolutely ignore the vet's suggestion of encouraging the horse to hoon round. You could just end up with a full scale tying-up and all the risks that brings with it.

Sarah
 
I have to agree.

Vets do not always get things right. Several vets missed the gastric ulcers that a mare at my yard was suffering from. She ended up having £10 k worth of investigations and needless treatments before we insisted she was scoped! Th mare was well behaved when strangers rode her and so several vets insisted her problem was behavioural. Vets also passed my horse's back as 'strong' and 'not sore'. Again I had to insist he was xrayed and he was found to have kissing spine in ten places.

I think horses behave like they do for a reason.
 
flintfootfilly said:
So glad you've had blood tests done. Do make sure you ask for a copy of the complete blood report for yourself for reference (even if you don't yet know how to interpret it!).

Hopefully they will have included muscle enzymes in the profile and those could be really informative (AST, CK, LDH).

Is your horse planting like this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73446118/lameness summary video.wmv

This is what my boy Max has been doing. You will see on the video that some days he is better than others. There are days when he'll barely move without whip and spurs, but most days he is just generally reluctant.

We are eventually starting to get to the bottom of things (after having vets call him "strong-willed" and "stubborn". In fact, it turns out he has been amazingly tolerant, too tolerant, of all the work requests that he's been unable to fulfil.

Muscle enzymes were the clue for us, and I'm in the middle of supplementing with selenium in the hope/belief that a long term selenium deficiency has been the cause. I don't have conclusive evidence yet, but I'm hopeful.

I would disagree with your vet about horses showing tension/stress when in pain. Some horses can be particularly stoic and just appear "stubborn" when they are unable to do some work for us.

Hope the bloods point you in the right direction for whatever's wrong.

Sarah
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Thanks - I have just called the vets and asked (if it's not too late and if there's enough blood) if they can test for muscle enzymes too.
I suspect it's not that as she does tolerate work...when she wants to! ie we went to and XC clinic last week and she was loving it and raring to go for the full hour. Also I would assume if it's muscle enzymes she would get worse as she did work, we tend to have arguments for 15 minutes or so at the beginning of a session and then she goes nicely.
 
This sounds exactly like my old boy, who used to plant in the school after around 10 mins of work, would hack out fine in company, but refuse to go on his own...

You have probably had her back checked by a physio already but this ended up being my boys problem, as he was really tense under saddle
 
Maybe your vet will recommend a bute test? 1 x bute a day for 10 days, ride the horse every day, we tried it with a mare of ours that was extremely temperamental and opiniated, would nap for no reason that we could work out, if you tried to ride off the premises or at a competition. She had every check going and was pronounced fine. She never napped in the menage at home and loved her schooling, she would be a bit naughty sometimes but that was just her.

So we did the trial under the vets guidance, and she was exactly the same, no difference at all, so we put it down to her temperament and lack of confidence, and five years later she is a dream, maybe it's just a stage or something your horse is going through, but it might be worth mentioning the trial to your vet?

Good luck.
 
flintfootfilly said:
So glad you've had blood tests done. Do make sure you ask for a copy of the complete blood report for yourself for reference (even if you don't yet know how to interpret it!).

Hopefully they will have included muscle enzymes in the profile and those could be really informative (AST, CK, LDH).

Is your horse planting like this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73446118/lameness summary video.wmv

This is what my boy Max has been doing. You will see on the video that some days he is better than others. There are days when he'll barely move without whip and spurs, but most days he is just generally reluctant.

We are eventually starting to get to the bottom of things (after having vets call him "strong-willed" and "stubborn". In fact, it turns out he has been amazingly tolerant, too tolerant, of all the work requests that he's been unable to fulfil.

Muscle enzymes were the clue for us, and I'm in the middle of supplementing with selenium in the hope/belief that a long term selenium deficiency has been the cause. I don't have conclusive evidence yet, but I'm hopeful.

I would disagree with your vet about horses showing tension/stress when in pain. Some horses can be particularly stoic and just appear "stubborn" when they are unable to do some work for us.

Hope the bloods point you in the right direction for whatever's wrong.

Sarah
Click to expand...

Yes she does plant a bit like that but tends to slam the brakes on a bit sharper and often takes a lot more to get moving again. I see some of your 'plants' dribbled to an almost halt and then moved on again (slowly). S stops dead (total immobility) and doesn't fidgit when stopped.
I wonder would it be worth supplementing with selenium to see what effect it has or is it something I should only dabble with under vet supervision? Where do you buy selenium?
 
Selenium is something to be very very careful about. It's an essential mineral in very small amounts, but becomes dangerously toxic at only about 10 times a normal safe level, so it's important to respect this when working out whether to supplement, and how much to supplement.

If the bloods show raised muscle enzymes, then I would think it's worth exploring the selenium route a bit more (but bear in mind I don't yet have proof that this is what's going on with my gang). The best starting point for that would be to have the grass/hay/haylage analysed with a full analysis including selenium (Dodson & Horrell or Forageplus both offer forage analyses). National Research Council's recommended daily ration of selenium is 1mg/500kg horse/day. They recommend 0.1mg selenium/kg diet.

My hay and haylage were analysed as 0.04 and 0.05mg/kg selenium, which would mean that even if my gang were on an unrestricted diet, they would be getting only up to half the recommended selenium each day. The fact they are not on adlib grazing/hay has further compounded it in my gang.

So if you have an analysis done, you are looking for 0.1mg/kg selenium to have enough in the diet.

You also need to take into account any that your horse is eating in supplements etc.

Some people do choose to use a selenium/muscle supplement without working out the sums, but it's best to know what the base diet is so that you know what it's safe to supplement.

Worth remembering that organic selenium (ie selenium yeast, rather than inorganic forms such as sodium selenite) is known to be more bioavailable to horses, so it's worth finding a supplement that uses selenium yeast for best effect.

I chose to buy selenium yeast from Forageplus, but because it's so concentrated, it's even more important to work out the sums correctly to avoid overdosing.

Also worth joining the yahoo EPSM group as there's some stuff on there about selenium.

Oh, here's a link to another of my gang who grinds to a halt when being led....... similar kind of planting to my other boy. They seem to vary quite how adamant they are at staying stopped day by day:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/73446118/Rock and Rose 030512 emailable.wmv

If the muscle enzymes do look raised, and if you want to go down the selenium route further, then I'm happy to tell you everything that we've had done along this path. Like I say, I'm no expert, I'm just trying to find out what's wrong with my gang and to help them improve. I'm hoping my next set of bloods will show an improvement which will confirm it's selenium deficiency for us.

Of course, it may turn out to be something totally different in your horse, and whatever it is, I hope you can find the cause and help her improve.

Sarah
 
Just had the blood results back from the vet:
Her liver function is the best we've ever seen, well within normal tolerances.
Muscle enzymes are normal levels too.

I just don't get it; last night we were doing a little work in the school, she was soft, loose, doing lovely work and then BAM! slammed the brakes on and planted. It's not like she was fighting the contact / work beforehand, she was relaxed and working nicely.

I'm trying to do some more 'fun' stuff but she doesn't see it as fun when she's on her own and I can't always rope someone else in to come with me.
Flippin' ponies!!
 
Just read through all of your posts and it would still suggest pain to me. My chap had PSD and showed no signs of lameness. Had a full work up in hand and under saddle and only when ridden did he become resistant to go forward.

Got referred to Newmarket and again looked sound but on a scan showed the PSD. I'm a firm believer that a change in behaviour is pain related.

Maybe try a bute test for a couple of weeks and see if there's any change? If not I'd be asking for a referral.

Good luck
 
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