"In search of the great horse" 14.2hh max for medieval warhorses

[clinkerbuilt]

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-no-bigger-than-modern-day-ponies-study-finds
Perhaps no surprise.
Although some understanding that a 15hh could be Iberian-y in proportions perhaps would not go amiss in the news piece. The actual academic article was published in August 2021 so this must be "news" now because of the University of Exeter's publicity department...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.3038

 

[planete]

Deleted. I was trying to post a scene from the Bayeux tapestry depicting riders with their feet level with their horses' knees but failed.

 

[Rumtytum]

Deleted. I was trying to post a scene from the Bayeux tapestry depicting riders with their feet level with their horses' knees but failed.

Like these Planete? One looks like he’s riding backwards ?

 

[planete]

Thanks! I had never noticed the backward facing rider, how odd, any ideas?

 

[Ratface]

Well, one looks like he's balancing a book on his head, and the one behind him appears to be firing a pistol! Who knows what went on, really?
I agree about the horses' relative small size though.

 

[WaterySun852]

Practicing his "round the worlds" whilst riding ?‍. I'm glad I'm not the only who saw the firearm. Are they supposed to be archers?

 

[Rumtytum]

I see the gun now ?

 

[Rowreach]

I thought that the (small) size of historical horse armour had proved this a long time ago.

 

[Quigleyandme]

I guess men were smaller in those days too but my 14.2 Dales could have carried 14 stone of man and armour all day long and look pretty flashy doing it.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

Practicing his "round the worlds" whilst riding ?‍. I'm glad I'm not the only who saw the firearm. Are they supposed to be archers?

That's a horse's tail and a pointing horseman looking a bit misleading in low res I think!

 

[Rumtytum]

That's a horse's tail and a pointing horseman looking a bit misleading in low res I think!

I rather liked our interpretation ?

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I thought that the (small) size of historical horse armour had proved this a long time ago.

Yes, but I think studying skeletons allows for more discussion of breeding, eg:
"Results of our analyses on the robusticity of the metapodia (Figure 4) illustrate a possible effect of warhorse breeding for a robust rear limb during the High Medieval period. The marked increase in metatarsal robusticity in this period, as compared with the preceding Norman period, could be a result of the dedication to the breeding and/or training of the ‘great horse’ by Plantagenet kings (Davis, 1989). This coincides with a preference for horses over oxen for agricultural purposes beginning in the 12th century (Langdon, 2002) and compatible evidence for an increase in horseshoe size at this time (Clark, 2004). Together, this evidence may reflect a trend towards the development of an early type of heavy horse with a strong conformation, especially in regard to the rear limbs, while maintaining a similar shoulder height to the rest of the horse population across the period."

 

[WaterySun852]

That's a horse's tail and a pointing horseman looking a bit misleading in low res I think!

That's better, thank you. The back to front rider has his feet the right way round in the clearer picture too

 

[Cortez]

Horses remained mostly pony-sized right up until the 18th century.

 

[SEL]

I was about to propose Militaire as the ideal warhorse because I know the Ardennes were used in battle - but then the article described the warhorses as 'slight' and that is never a word used to describe him ?

Although I always thought if you shot bucket loads of carrots behind enemy lines then pointed a load of draft horses in that direction you'd send the enemy flying in short order ?

 

[WaterySun852]

I was about to propose Militaire as the ideal warhorse

His name would be rather apt tho, if I've got the pronunciation right

 

[clinkerbuilt]

They also suggest that Norman horses might have been smaller and more slender because of injections of Arabian breeding from the 8th century onwards. Something the Plantagenets may have been moving away from.

 

[Cortez]

I was about to propose Militaire as the ideal warhorse because I know the Ardennes were used in battle - but then the article described the warhorses as 'slight' and that is never a word used to describe him ?

Although I always thought if you shot bucket loads of carrots behind enemy lines then pointed a load of draft horses in that direction you'd send the enemy flying in short order ?

It's a common misconception that medieval war horses were heavy draught types, when they were actually much more like a Spanish/ Iberian tupe.

 

[cauda equina]

Arabs were early war horses too

 

[Cortez]

Arabs were early war horses too

How early?

 

[catkin]

Smaller pony types would be cheaper to feed too. Pretty important if you've got a big army of em.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

How early?

Do you mean how early is there a visibly (modern) Arabian breed in war, or how early are there horses in Arabia used for war? (latter may be easier to answer)
http://saudi-archaeology.com/subjects/horses/

(ETA speaking as a nerd, not an expert)

 

[Cortez]

Do you mean how early is there a visibly (modern) Arabian breed in war, or how early are there horses in Arabia used for war? (latter may be easier to answer)
http://saudi-archaeology.com/subjects/horses/

(ETA speaking as a nerd, not an expert)

I mean how early do you think the Arab-type horse appeared in Medieval Europe.

 

[Palindrome]

Yes, looking at Icelandic horses and reading the Icelandic sagas made me realize that the sizes weren't the same back then.
A viking on his horse would be riding a 13hh pony, not a 17hh friesian (no offence to Icelandic horses they are fab but not the type you see ridden by vikings in movies).

 

[cobgoblin]

I like their onesies.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, looking at Icelandic horses and reading the Icelandic sagas made me realize that the sizes weren't the same back then.
A viking on his horse would be riding a 13hh pony, not a 17hh friesian (no offence to Icelandic horses they are fab but not the type you see ridden by vikings in movies).

Icelandic horses are mostly descended from horses taken there from Ireland. Vikings didn't bring horses with them when they went a-raiding, they preferred to 'acquire' them from the locals, and the Vikings that raided Britain, Ireland and Normandy mostly came from Norway and Denmark.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I mean how early do you think the Arab-type horse appeared in Medieval Europe.

Sorry I'm still being dim, do you mean apart from the Arab conquests?

 

[Cortez]

Sorry I'm still being dim, do you mean apart from the Arab conquests?

No just in general, when Arab blood was likely to be used in breeding European horses for instance.

 

[Skib]

Yes, they were smaller than today and also likely to be gaited. It is an expensive book, but I recommend Edwards, The Horse Trade of Tudor and Stuart England. I came across it by chance on display in the National Archive.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

No just in general, when Arab blood was likely to be used in breeding European horses for instance.

There's presumably a difference between "possible" and "evidenced" - so NW Europe and Syria/Mesopotamia are already linked by sea and organisationally/politically under the Roman empire & you have army detachments moving frequently between one frontier and another. And that's a few hundred years worth of interaction. Plus Vikings sailing to Byzantium. Where do you stop really? But most mentions seem to be of 7th to 8th century & Arab conquest.

Anyway this article does propose the Norman period as a potential link to Britain:
"The changes observed during the Norman period could in part reflect an influx of Arabian blood into Western European horse stock, which is known from Iberia from the 8th century AD (Hyland, 1994). During this period, the Islamic Conquest in Spain provided Europe with access to novel horse lineages, written sources mention that the Normans were gifted horses of Spanish, French and Moorish origins (Fages et al., 2019; Kelekna, 2009) something also reflected in ancient genomics (Fages et al., 2019; Kelekna, 2009). It is possible that these more gracile Norman horses of mixed lineage were perfectly designed for Norman cavalry tactics (Davis, 1987), which were different from the ‘heavy’ cavalry tactics of later periods." (nb haven't looked up the references).