In sharp contrast to CDJ etc

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I'm Dun

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This was a lovely watch. If it turns out he too batters his horses behind closed doors I will cry and be done with the lot of it. But this was just so fun to see being done and him being a bit nervous was really heartening, and then as it went on it became a really lovely example of why these horses do not need to be caused physical pain to perform. Really made me happy to see how much he thought of the horse and how he had tried alterantive methods to get the best from him.

 
Really enjoyed watching this. Interesting that he had so many oral variations to communicate with the horse. Of course the horse was trained to this level wearing a bridle, I wonder can the same level of training be accomplished with a neck strap/rein. I loved that he thanked the horse with a quiet voice & stroke/scratch on the neck & not a snack that we see so often at dressage competitions.
 
This really was lovely to watch -thank you for posting. The way the horse altered his frame of his own accord to suit the work being asked was fascinating. I'd love to know if a horse trained to that level but never having had a bit in, would do the same? Was it biomechanics or habit?

2 other things that struck me - the horse still had a lightly foamy mouth after working a few minutes wothout a bit, though more on the right side than the left.

What is the obsession with flash straps? Why would a rider with his skill and background feel the need for a flash strap with the snaffle? It wasn't tight, but neither was it particularly loose. It was interesting how the horse moved his jaw in some of the movements.
 
Cragrat said:
This really was lovely to watch -thank you for posting. The way the horse altered his frame of his own accord to suit the work being asked was fascinating. I'd love to know if a horse trained to that level but never having had a bit in, would do the same? Was it biomechanics or habit?

2 other things that struck me - the horse still had a lightly foamy mouth after working a few minutes wothout a bit, though more on the right side than the left.

What is the obsession with flash straps? Why would a rider with his skill and background feel the need for a flash strap with the snaffle? It wasn't tight, but neither was it particularly loose. It was interesting how the horse moved his jaw in some of the movements.
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There are horses at lower levels and in different disciplines that have been trained bridleless from the start and their head carriage seems to me to be very similar to what's demanded/required at the relevant level in their discipline. The neck coming up and back must help the horse bring its weight back so if the horse is sitting properly I assume the head carriage would reflect that.

There's a reining guy who has a horse trained bridleless that's been posted here before I'm sure - can't remember his name.

This is lovely to watch.

I may have felt similar when the tack was taken from under me literally and I was sent off with just a neck rope to complete one of my early lessons at my last yard. Did they close the arena gate in deference to my terror? No of course not 😆
 
pistolpete said:
To me this shows super communication. Why oh why is this not the goal?
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I think this is the goal for an awful lot of people, not everyone achieves it, but a lot of people really try.

I ride my own horses in both a neck rope and a headcollar, I enjoy it, and I hope the horses do too, all my horses are started and backed using a bridle, but I've ridden them in the neck rope from the age of about five up to the GP horses. The posture and carriage comes from the biomechanics necessary to do what they are asked, a horse that has been correctly trained is not pulled into a false outline, it develops the musculature over time to do what is asked. When I rode my five year old in a neck rope we did basic things in a fairly open frame, that horse is now eight, and when I now ride him in a neck rope his frame is higher and more advanced just as it is in his work with a bridle.

My horses also have a small amount of foam on their mouths after working with the neck rope, my horses that foam less with a bit also foam less with the neck rope, and vice versa.

I also realise I have a wide range of verbal cues that I use, they are very effective.

I ride and compete up to GP, and I teach primarily more grass roots riders, but it means I see a lot of riders, and I'm friends with a lot of riders and quite a few competition riders, and so many of them are trying their best for their horses, trying to refine communication, constantly trying to improve etc. I know like attracts like so given that I'm that rider with barefoot horses competing GP in a snaffle, I know that the riders who are on the harsh and abusive side of the fence are likely to regard me as way too fluffy and soft, (I take that as a compliment), so its logical that the riders I am friends with are the kinder riders. But there are a lot of us, we are not news, we are not all riding at the really big internationals, but there are still a lot of use trying so hard to do the best we can for our horses, and regarding the video posted upthread as something quite normal that we do at home without necessarily having a youtube channel. I am delighted that riders with higher profiles are showing more of this kind of thing, because it is way more widespread than I think people realise.
 
Cragrat said:
What is the obsession with flash straps? Why would a rider with his skill and background feel the need for a flash strap with the snaffle? It wasn't tight, but neither was it particularly loose. It was interesting how the horse moved his jaw in some of the movements.
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Because we’ve been conditioned to see a horse with its mouth closed as correct and attractive, and an open mouth as ugly, tense, or untrained. And looking good is more important to a lot of people than doing the work to find the cause, or just accepting that the horse wants its mouth open and that's OK.

I've used them in the past and don't disagree with them, but then I have my flashes on so loose they're basically redundant anyway. I'm continuously disgusted by people who do them up so tight the horse's jaw is fixed in place.
 
daffy44 said:
I think this is the goal for an awful lot of people, not everyone achieves it, but a lot of people really try.

I ride my own horses in both a neck rope and a headcollar, I enjoy it, and I hope the horses do too, all my horses are started and backed using a bridle, but I've ridden them in the neck rope from the age of about five up to the GP horses. The posture and carriage comes from the biomechanics necessary to do what they are asked, a horse that has been correctly trained is not pulled into a false outline, it develops the musculature over time to do what is asked. When I rode my five year old in a neck rope we did basic things in a fairly open frame, that horse is now eight, and when I now ride him in a neck rope his frame is higher and more advanced just as it is in his work with a bridle.

My horses also have a small amount of foam on their mouths after working with the neck rope, my horses that foam less with a bit also foam less with the neck rope, and vice versa.

I also realise I have a wide range of verbal cues that I use, they are very effective.

I ride and compete up to GP, and I teach primarily more grass roots riders, but it means I see a lot of riders, and I'm friends with a lot of riders and quite a few competition riders, and so many of them are trying their best for their horses, trying to refine communication, constantly trying to improve etc. I know like attracts like so given that I'm that rider with barefoot horses competing GP in a snaffle, I know that the riders who are on the harsh and abusive side of the fence are likely to regard me as way too fluffy and soft, (I take that as a compliment), so its logical that the riders I am friends with are the kinder riders. But there are a lot of us, we are not news, we are not all riding at the really big internationals, but there are still a lot of use trying so hard to do the best we can for our horses, and regarding the video posted upthread as something quite normal that we do at home without necessarily having a youtube channel. I am delighted that riders with higher profiles are showing more of this kind of thing, because it is way more widespread than I think people realise.
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That is very interesting D44, thank you for posting it. Interesting about the frame and the foam.
 
Burnttoast said:
There's a reining guy who has a horse trained bridleless that's been posted here before I'm sure - can't remember his name.
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Luke Gingerich. His QH Chloe has never so much as had a bit in her mouth or bitless bridle on her face, she's literally only ever worn a neckrope.

Feather Light Horsemanship also often shows videos of her riding in just a neckrope - of note the one mare (Imola) who used to be very difficult/explosive has just done her first GP. Alot of her training was done in a neckrope too I believe, but not solely.
 
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Time for Tea said:
That is very interesting D44, thank you for posting it. Interesting about the frame and the foam.
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My pleasure. I expected the frame, but not the foam, I asked the dentist about it, as he is also a bitting person, and he was very interested, but didnt have an explanation for it, so I just assume as the horse is working it naturally uses the neck and jaw in such a way as to produce some foam, but thats only a guess.
 
PurpleSpots said:
Luke Gingerich. His QH Chloe has never so much as had a bit in her mouth or bitless bridle on her face, she's literally only ever worn a neckrope.

Feather Light Horsemanship also often shows videos of her riding in just a neckrope - of note the one mare (Imola) who used to be very difficult/explosive has just done her first GP. Alot of her training was done in a neckrope too I believe, but not solely.
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Yes that's it. Lovely video of him and Wizard(?)
 
daffy44 said:
My pleasure. I expected the frame, but not the foam, I asked the dentist about it, as he is also a bitting person, and he was very interested, but didnt have an explanation for it, so I just assume as the horse is working it naturally uses the neck and jaw in such a way as to produce some foam, but thats only a guess.
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I wonder if they do swallow less when they're concentrating and/or in a higher/shorter frame, so the saliva has to go somewhere.
 
GoldenWillow said:
The foam on mouth was explained to me about 30yrs ago by a very strict on people but totally horse orientated trainer that it was to do with the hind leg working correctly which affects a gland in the jaw which produces the saliva/foam. I've no idea if this is correct but it would tie in with it happening bitless.
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It's because the hind legs and tongue are effectively linked by the hyoid muscle/nerve
Am engaged hyoid tends to mean relaxed tongue; a tight/restricted tongue means improperly engaged hyoid

(I think experienced people please correct if I am wrong but that's my understanding of it. It's also why head position is nothing to do with collection).
 
FieldOrnaments said:
It's because the hind legs and tongue are effectively linked by the hyoid muscle/nerve
Am engaged hyoid tends to mean relaxed tongue; a tight/restricted tongue means improperly engaged hyoid

(I think experienced people please correct if I am wrong but that's my understanding of it. It's also why head position is nothing to do with collection).
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Yes, I think you're absolutely right, I'm slightly ashamed to admit I'd forgotten about the hyloid, sorry.
 
T
GoldenWillow said:
The foam on mouth was explained to me about 30yrs ago by a very strict on people but totally horse orientated trainer that it was to do with the hind leg working correctly which affects a gland in the jaw which produces the saliva/foam. I've no idea if this is correct but it would tie in with it happening bitless.
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I have heard that the hyoid apparatus can have knock-on effects further back in the body, but not the other way round and am not sure how that would work, although disfunction in the shoulder area (saddle fit, hyperflexion) can knock on forward to the hyoid. I've never seen horses foaming after showing off in the field, when presumably the hind leg is as engaged as it's ever going to be - does that happen? Also horses don't produce saliva unless they're chewing iirc, so presumably the mouth is moving in a way that causes saliva production even when bitless, and/or swallowing is reduced by a factor other than tack or head carriage? Foam per se means the saliva that's produced stays in the mouth and the mouth moves enough to create the foam, which is then not swallowed, or not completely swallowed (or we wouldn't see it)
 
FieldOrnaments said:
It's because the hind legs and tongue are effectively linked by the hyoid muscle/nerve
Am engaged hyoid tends to mean relaxed tongue; a tight/restricted tongue means improperly engaged hyoid

(I think experienced people please correct if I am wrong but that's my understanding of it. It's also why head position is nothing to do with collection).
Click to expand...
How interesting! I was told by a dressage trainer many years ago that horses who stick their tongue out when ridden usually have some sort of issue behind and I while I believed her I never understood the science behind why!
 
Ooh apparatus was the word I was looking for in lieu of 'muscle/nerve', ty. I need to keep my mouth shut before adequate caffeine gallonage clearly 🤣
 
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