in this situation would you PTS?

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little_rou

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Following on from my behavioural problems post a few weeks ago, I have consulted with the vet and physio.

Unfortunately it doesnt look good, vet suspects cribbing is realted to ulcers, but hasnt scoped to confirm. also on a full lameness work up he was actually lame, she has diagnosed arthritis in his hocks. he is now on bute, which isnt actually keeping him sound, and is making his cribbing worse - again suggesting ulcers. (and yes I have tried danilon and buteless herbal stuff - none of it made a difference)

Physio had a field day with him - found discomfort pretty much everywhere! she isnt entirely sure of the cause, and feels that its probably related to his past in racing. she has suggested long term rest, coupled with physio and rehab. she hasnt been able to rule out bone related problems.

So basically my question is would you perservere through winter and longer term with a horse that you know is a poor doer and will struggle, who is going to cost an amount in treatment that you potentially cant cover, knowing that the prognosis for him being a riding horse isnt great, and that in the meantime he is hurting and unhappy and that the pain killers to try to help are only making it worse

yes it could turn out to be nothing, but combined with the other problems, would you go there? or retire for the last of the good weather and call it a day? I dont know what to do for the best
 
Firstly, huge hugs! I was in a position like this a few years ago and unfortunately had every single test and treatment done yet he was pts more or less after the last treatment. I regret it every day and if it happened again I would pts straight away. My poor horse had 9 months of treatment, and if I'm honest he was in pain all the time.

I told the vets not to bring him round from GA unless he had a definite chance of being pain free and at least field sound, consultant brought him round and he was pts 4 months later.

I think you know in your heart what is best for him, but tbh it is your decision. x
 
awful situation to be in and must be heartbreaking. Being on the 'outside looking in', my feeling is put to sleep before he degenerates, but....! Only you can take the onerous decision and Im sure you will make the correct one. Hugs, Mairi.x
 
Personaly? I would put him out for 6 months somewhere - no medication, physio only.

Time at grass heals ulcers meaning that you could then bring him into work and use some. Sort of painkiller if needed - rememer most horses have arthritis of some sort!
Then make a decision on him :)

I think that is actually the best option :)
 
thank you.

he is on loan, I have spoken to his owner, who agrees he should be have quality of life and that isnt necessarily related to quanity, plus he should be allowed to live happy and pain free, he not either one of those.

I thought I had made the decision, and Ive cried all day, but a friend has just questioned my choice and made me feel like I've given up to easily, that I havent tried enough things her words where 'its all a bit quick'. well my vets are telling me the only option they see is long term treatment, which i dont know if i can afford, with no promise of a resolution at the end, he is likely to be in pain during this time. and yes its quick, we knew somethign wasnt right, we got the specialists in, theyve told me what they think and I want to act, because this whole time he continues to be a very uncomfortable and unhappy man.

I guess this post is just me trying to convince myself.

Thank you all for your kind messages
 
only me, he has been at at grass all summer -since May and has only had hay ccassionally since then, I have -no previous experience of ulcers, but would more time at grass really help? he wintered out last year and really really struggled. I dont htink it would be fair to turn him away for the winter again
 
Then I sadly think you have made the right decision. Forget what opinion your 'friend' has and go with what you see day to day. I made the decision with the vet and stacked him on danilon for the last week - he was still lame but more comfortable and could actually whiz round with his best mate, it was a short fix but at least he went with a glint in his eye.
 
How old is the horse ? In my view from what you have said there is no justification to pts as there doesn't seem to be any definitive diagnosis.

There doesn't seem to be any major problems mentioned there, a lot of horses get arthritus for example. Also most physio's find discomfort somewhere my 8 yrs old in full work was uncomfortable but in no way a PTS situation.


If however your own circumstances are such that you would prefer not to or can't pay for a horse to go through treatment that is an entirely different situation. In my view the way you have phrased this is as you have already made your mind up and are wanting justification of putting her down.
 
if he has ulcers then he will find it very hard to put condition on.

i would scope for ulcers, get treatment and stick him out for 6-12 months on good grass with hay as needed.
 
little_rou said:
thank you.

he is on loan, I have spoken to his owner, who agrees he should be have quality of life and that isnt necessarily related to quanity, plus he should be allowed to live happy and pain free, he not either one of those.

I thought I had made the decision, and Ive cried all day, but a friend has just questioned my choice and made me feel like I've given up to easily, that I havent tried enough things her words where 'its all a bit quick'.
Thank you all for your kind messages
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It takes a strong person to make this decision, and you really don't need a lay person questioning you as it is hard enough anyway. You've been sensible enough to go down the route of specialist advice, and all you can do is work out in your head what their collective prognosis is and decide, with his owner, what to do.

Horrible dilemma, but you really sound as if you are going to put the horse first, so good luck with your decision.

Big hugs for you.
 
LHS said:
How old is the horse ? In my view from what you have said there is no justification to pts as there doesn't seem to be any definitive diagnosis.

There doesn't seem to be any major problems mentioned there, a lot of horses get arthritus for example. Also most physio's find discomfort somewhere my 8 yrs old in full work was uncomfortable but in no way a PTS situation.


If however your own circumstances are such that you would prefer not to or can't pay for a horse to go through treatment that is an entirely different situation. In my view the way you have phrased this is as you have already made your mind up and are wanting justification of putting her down.
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BRrrrrrr!
 
I have been in a similar situation and have recently had the same dilemma again.
My own criteria for making the decision is based on whether the horse can be kept pain free in the long term and has a decent quality of life, ie, return to some kind of work, or happy in retirement. Also, its fair to think of whats important for you too. Can you see yourself being content with caring for a horse who is limited in its ability to work or unridable ? For some people, its not such a problem, they prefer caring to riding, while others can afford to keep a retired horse and buy another. However, time and time again, I've seen horses that had miserable lives, kept going because their owners weren't selfless enough to let them go.
Its so much easier when the decision is black and white,say, an unoperable broken leg. Shades of grey, are harder,only you know whats best.
 
You obviously have a lot of bad news to deal with all at once and I can see why you might be considering PTS.

BUT if you try taking them one-by-one it might not look so bleak
- ulcers are very, very common, especially in ex-racers, and quite recoverable from too
- a physio thinking a horse needs work is very different from it being in permanent pain for life. I doubt many riders could visit a physio and not be told they could improve a few areas. But we muddle through
- many poor doers make it through many winters quite comfortably with careful management, there are plenty of people on here who will be able to give you good advice
- for me the biggest concern would be the arthritis. As mentioned it is also very common and can be managed but it all depends on the degree. Perhaps have another convo with your vet on this?

Incidentally is the horse not insured for these conditions, at least initially? No, it isn't perfect but if people (not necessarily OP) can't afford any potentially necessary veterinary treatment for their animals I can't really see why anyone wouldn't.

Very best of luck to both horse and owner whatever the outcome.
 
I dont think I have made a decision really, heart and head are still arguing, I guess I kind of need to talk it through and get it out there in the hope it will help me make a decision.

We dont have a definite prognosis, he could be right in 6 months, he might never be right, physio is indicating long term rest and physio, shes suggested a year or possibly more out, she hasnt ruled out bone related problems.

he is 13 1/2 so would be at least 14 poss 15 by the time he can be back in work (assuming she doesnt uncover more problems down the line or that his arthrits doesnt degenerate) hes not just a bit sore - he is very very uncomfortable, kicking out, throwing himself when manipulated.

do I put him through it, when I have no idea of what the future holds
 
There are 100's of horses that have ulcers, good old green grass is the best medication and turn out should heal all/most ailments. Unless the horse is old, give it a chance, personally any horse TB or other should not have to suffer your cold english winters esp like the one past and i think it is just laziness on the owners part to turn them out 24/7, sorry but thats my opinion. Rug it up, make sure it has plenty of hay and be prepared to bring it in when the temp drops below 0 that's fair. If it doesnt manage this winter and is still unsound then let it go to the big field in the sky. At least then your tried. If the horse has arthritis ofcourse it is not going to do well standing in the freezing cold/snow, so you will need to keep its legs warm, bandage up and bring it in. Good luck
 
irish_only said:
It takes a strong person to make this decision, and you really don't need a lay person questioning you as it is hard enough anyway. You've been sensible enough to go down the route of specialist advice, and all you can do is work out in your head what their collective prognosis is and decide, with his owner, what to do.

Horrible dilemma, but you really sound as if you are going to put the horse first, so good luck with your decision.

Big hugs for you.
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I have to agree with this totally, so sorry but you know the horse better than anyone, you are the best placed to make this decision; don't let anyone put you on a guilt trip if you feel it's wrong to continue treating him.
I suppose a basic way to help you decide is even if you had all the money and right facilities in the world, would you still believe he would be better off PTS? I'm a strong believer in quality of life not quantity and a horse just knows contentment or distress and pain, I know which I would prefer to give for their benefit.
 
Fairynuff said:
BRrrrrrr!
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Whats that about ????

The thread was ' in this situation would you PTS?'

And all i'm saying is based on what the OP has told us no I don't think without a full diagnosis I would.

Just MO though. I put my horse to sleep last week so i'm not someone who keeps them going for ever if PTS is a kinder option.
 
I think horserider sums up what im trying to get at and work through in my own mind - I cant be sure he has any future, I think it incredibly unlikely that he will cope being a field ornament. and for the forseeable future I cant be sure hes pain free either, Im struggling to keep him field sound at the moment.

and yes, I want a horse to ride, I already have one retired, and dont really think i can have another. It makes me feel very very selfish to say so
 
little_rou said:
I think horserider sums up what im trying to get at and work through in my own mind - I cant be sure he has any future, I think it incredibly unlikely that he will cope being a field ornament. and for the forseeable future I cant be sure hes pain free either, Im struggling to keep him field sound at the moment.

and yes, I want a horse to ride, I already have one retired, and dont really think i can have another. It makes me feel very very selfish to say so
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In that case PTS is a sensible option and I can fully understand not wanting to collect horses that can't be ridden. They are too expensive in time and money to have little or no enjoyment from them if its the ridden work you enjoy.

Good luck its a horrible decision.

xx
 
beeswax said:
There are 100's of horses that have ulcers, good old green grass is the best medication and turn out should heal all/most ailments. Unless the horse is old, give it a chance, personally any horse TB or other should not have to suffer your cold english winters esp like the one past and i think it is just laziness on the owners part to turn them out 24/7, sorry but thats my opinion. Rug it up, make sure it has plenty of hay and be prepared to bring it in when the temp drops below 0 that's fair. If it doesnt manage this winter and is still unsound then let it go to the big field in the sky. At least then your tried. If the horse has arthritis ofcourse it is not going to do well standing in the freezing cold/snow, so you will need to keep its legs warm, bandage up and bring it in. Good luck
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I have to completely disagree with you on this one. It wasn't laziness that made me leave a great yard with fantastic facilities to a small grass livery yard with few facilities. Stabling is the worst thing you can do for an arthritic horse. Mine are now running through 13 acres of fields, hedgerows and trees and two huge open barns. None of the horses use the barns in the snow, including the 30 year old, who is still in daily work.
 
little_rou said:
and yes, I want a horse to ride, I already have one retired, and dont really think i can have another. It makes me feel very very selfish to say so
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Don't be daft. Horses are our hobby, our passion, call it what you will but that does not mean we have to be beholden to it.
BTW, if horse is on loan to you, what does the owner say or are they content/ not bothered enough to let you make the decision? If you gave the horse back what would they do?
 
Owner has been great, and as supportive as she can be, she has agreed with everything I've said, and the points Ive raised in my past posts. I think she will support whatever decision I make, but i think shes is of the opinion that the kindest thing to do its let him go
 
horserider said:
I have to completely disagree with you on this one. It wasn't laziness that made me leave a great yard with fantastic facilities to a small grass livery yard with few facilities. Stabling is the worst thing you can do for an arthritic horse. Mine are now running through 13 acres of fields, hedgerows and trees and two huge open barns. None of the horses use the barns in the snow, including the 30 year old, who is still in daily work.
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agreeing again with horserider, Im my experience keeping arthritics moving is very beneficial

my situation is a dilemma of welfare and not laziness!!
 
Good to know about your owner being onside, I think that's important for you to know anyway and something to bear in mind with your decision. I just know, if I was the owner and that was what I believed, then I would be very arbitary about having it done so you're lucky (or not, depending how you look at it) in one respect, you get to make that final decision.

Have to agree about mobility for arthritis too.
 
beeswax said:
There are 100's of horses that have ulcers, good old green grass is the best medication and turn out should heal all/most ailments. Unless the horse is old, give it a chance, personally any horse TB or other should not have to suffer your cold english winters esp like the one past and i think it is just laziness on the owners part to turn them out 24/7, sorry but thats my opinion. Rug it up, make sure it has plenty of hay and be prepared to bring it in when the temp drops below 0 that's fair. If it doesnt manage this winter and is still unsound then let it go to the big field in the sky. At least then your tried. If the horse has arthritis ofcourse it is not going to do well standing in the freezing cold/snow, so you will need to keep its legs warm, bandage up and bring it in. Good luck
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Sorry but that is the biggest bunch of rubbish.

By choice my horse (ID/TB) and pony (welsh c) both leave there nice warm stables and stand outside even in the rain and snow. This winter they had haynets in their stables and hay out in the field - they have 24 hr access to their stables but chose to eat hay in the field. Neither of them are rugged they both grow coats like bears.

Horses are designed to cope with weather - fine a TB will usually require rugging but given the choice a large number would rather have their freedom than be shut in a stable all day.

From what the OP has said, she has given the horse and chance and he has been out on the grass but with little sucess.
 
Thing is, the physio and the ulcers are treatable - but unless you scope for ulcers you cant be sure - could be worms etc.

The arthritis is managable to a certain extent :)

Physio shouldnt really be saying all that time off - rest yes for the first few days but then gentle work stretching and building up the muscle in the correct place.
Ulcers are managable and most horses in work have them to some extent.

The problem is imo that if he is a poor doer then you are going to stable him over winter which will make his arthritis much much worse, so to deal with the arthritis you would be better keeping him in a field and just feeding in the field. This will also help the Ulcer problem.
Most horses are sore somewhere when they get physio - I know when I get physio done I limp for days after :p

Whatever you do it has to be your own decision; one of the horses on the yard is being pts this week as it has a very bad heart, meaning most of major organs are damaged due to low blood supply - so his body cannot process any protein whatsoever so he has lost all of his muscle! No hope of recovery and he is no good as a companion. :(
 
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