inbreeding question

[Stinkbomb]

I have been looking at the breeding of a miniature mare that i am interested in buying and have noticed that her granddam ( Sambos lady luck ) was mated with its own father ( Boones little Andy ). Would this be something i should be worried about? Or is this far enough down the pedigree line to not be concerned about?

This is the mares dams pedigree ..

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/little+lady+luck2

Little lady luck is the DAM of the mare im interested in as i didnt think it fair i post the mares details.

 

[KarynK]

That is a very close mating and mating that close usually gives diseased mutations if there are any a chance to materialise. The problem you have is that the back pedigree is blank so you cannot see if there is any more concentration of the pedigree further back.

A foal gets 50% of it's genes from it's father, during egg formation you would have got on average 50% of those 50% put forward. Then you would get 50% by mating back to that father so you now have up to 75% of the fathers genes in that mare.

If the mare appears OK and there's no dwarfism in the lines and the vet is happy with her you would have to make sure that you out-cross when breeding with her to unrelated stallions.

 

[appennea]

You might want to check the lines via another source if you haven't already. It may be an error on the website. My own mare's pedigree was incorrect on here.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm not a geneticist, and may well be wrong, but THAT would frighten the life out of me! Is this how the freakish miniatures arrived?

God, but I do hope not.

Alec.

 

[competitiondiva]

Yes that is very close, in this link Sambo's lady luck is definately quoted to be by Boones Little Andy, so aslong as you have the correct sire of the filly then it seems allbreedpedigree is right! http://www.highhopesacres.com/Auction/oct 2009/pdf catalog final oct 2009.pdf

I would be wary especially with minatures due to the dwarfism etc. This sort of mating I also found in quite a popular stallion Wild Dice Bewes BWB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wild+dice+bewes I remembered seeing his pedigree somewhere else, then when I tried to look now, it seems that only part of his pedigree is readily available!! And this is a stallion at stud! Look at Atlantus on the dam's side.

 

[SKY]

that really doesnt look right. too close. i wouldnt buy.

 

[S_N]

If it wasn't a minature and it had a full pedigree (as stated, have you checked other sources?) and if the individual was an exceptional example, then it wouldn't worry me overly much. Doing it this close is a huge gamble! It either nails the desired characteristics or goes completely wrong! The Sports Horse stallion Capability Curtis is bred in just this manner http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/capability+curtis Yes I know this an all breed pedigre, pedigree, but it's incomplete on sports horse data! Yet he was featured in, I think, H&H a few years ago, as he's by (and out of a mare by) the sire of Oli Townsend's Flint Curtis.

 

[Stinkbomb]

You might want to check the lines via another source if you haven't already. It may be an error on the website. My own mare's pedigree was incorrect on here.

The breeding according to other sites does appear to be correct. These miniatures are AMHA registered and most AMHA horses are DNA parentage qualified.

The mare in question has excellent horses in her pedigree on both the mares and the Dams side, just wish Boones Little Andy appeared in it only once

Thanks everyone, will look elsewhere, she was perfect otherwise!

 

[KarynK]

I'm not a geneticist, and may well be wrong, but THAT would frighten the life out of me! Is this how the freakish miniatures arrived?

God, but I do hope not.

Alec.

They tend to do this a lot in North America, a lot of breeders do father daughter matings in the belief that it will show them how good their stallion is to in/line breed with!!

Personally it's far too close for me and this is exactly how you allow recessive baddies like dwarfism out of the bag so to speak. In a complete outcross pedigree recessive mutations cannot appear, as they never get together with another recessive gene from the same source animal. You need two copies of a recessive for it to appear, just like chestnuts.

However a complete outcross pedigree will not fix type or consistently produce a type or consistent performance, so you have to get the balance right, with some degree of in/line breeding and keeping the gene pool open by using outcrosses.

This is where breeds like the warmblood have won out, by allowing the introduction of fresh genes when breeders need it, to to keep the gene pool wide and improve the conformation and performance when needed.

 

[Faberge]

Personally wouldn't touch with a bargepole with that inbreeding

 

[Stinkbomb]

Yep thanks everyone, decided to look elsewhere, thanks for your help.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

My horse is like that and it certainly did not put me off. As long as the horse is healthy there should be no issues at all!

 

[gekko]

Close breeding concentrates genes...yep.....good ones too... if the parents don't have negative issues it is a good way to fix type and concentrate positives... It's a VERY important tool in the development of any breed, but needs knowledge, experience and ruthless determination to cull failures from the breeding program.

Remember the proper terms.... It's line breeding when you do it/it works....
It's inbreeding when someone else does it/it doesn't work..

 

[woodlander]

Very interesting. I am not a genetics expert but this sort of mating is used and, I hear, recommended for sheep where it is suggested that you put a ram to its daughters to really understand what you have got, genetically. Given that you are going to eat sheep that seems less of a problem.

I know that Zangersheide mate very closely (brother and sister, I believe) to concentrate the genes for a mare like Ratina Z. The thinking is that if you know the back pedigree is clear of defects, you will concentrate the good.

I think it is too close because my understanding is that you lose hybrid vigour, which is the robustness that comes from widening the gene pool. In addition, I believe that this sort of close mating also threatens fertility. We try to breed third dam to third dam if at all possible and have sometimes bred closer by accident. Semen sent from Brookhouse was mixed up by TNT and the vet inseminated a Fidermark mare with Fuerstenreich semen (two times Florestan in the second generation). The result is a 16hh horse out of two much taller parents. I have seen similar smaller than expected horses from other close breeding to Bolero in their dam.

 

[Alec Swan]

woodlander,

whilst this is perhaps crude, and whilst I have nothing to support my argument, by way of evidence, I think that it's a bit like Microwaves, it somehow isn't right!

I cannot, and if I'm honest, I don't want to, believe that inbreeding works in mammals. It most certainly doesn't in humans, and there cannot be a more diverse gene pool than that which is available to our species.

I may well be wrong, but I suspect that with horses, when we concentrate on a specific discipline, be it dressage, racing or jumping, then the temptation to try and concentrate the desired qualities, must be to much for some to resist.

I know a little of the breeding of sheep, and when fathers, generally inadvertently, cover their daughters, then the resultant lambs go for slaughter. Few would keep them for breeding, and if you weren't to keep them for breeding purposes, then there would be no point. The very best lambs arrive by cross breeding.

I know of a Park of Fallow deer. They have been inbred for generations, in an effort to keep them white by colour. The resultant beasts are probably two thirds of the size and weight which they should be, and they may well be less than that.

Would I be wrong in thinking that the racing industry could be a yardstick by which mating plans are concentrated? They get it wrong, and on occasion dramatically, but is the British TB ever inbred, and to immediate relatives?

I'm going to stick with my Microwave argument, for now anyway!!

Alec.

 

[KarynK]

Thoroughbreds are sometimes closely inbred but it is very rare 3x3 is more the norm and a lot of the time they are inbred using 1/2 siblings. This is a sensible rule but you must remember that mistakes are readily culled from racing TB's as they are bred for pure performance.

One of the best modern examples of TB inbreeding is 2008 KY Derby winner Big Brown http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

He is inbred 3x3 on Northern Dancer and represents a ½ niece ½ nephew mating through the half brothers Danzig and Nureyev. He is also inbred 3x4 on Damascus through two daughters Edge and Syrian Circle who also bring into the mix an inbreeding on Round Table since both their mothers are daughters of his, this is represented as 4x5. Half sisters Edge and Syrian Circle represent a half 1st and 2nd cousin mating in human terms.

Like here with Round Table and Damascus you see this mixing of lines a lot in working pedigrees as it has long been found that certain lines cross really well and produce a higher instance of top class performers than just putting the best to the best. Round Table himself is the product of a rather famous crossing of the bloodlines of the stallions Princequillo and Bold Ruler which worked well.

In UK Thoroughbred breeding circles Linebreeding has always been used to describe the use of an ancestor outside of the first 5 generations so you are breeding lines together that have a common ancestor. Today in some places it is used to describe very close inbreeding after all it sounds much better doesn’t it!

Big Brown is line bred to his dam’s family. This has been through the mare Goody Two Shoes 1899. This happens mainly through full brother and sister Lt. Stevens and Thong who have between them 4 doses of this mare (4x7), she also appears in the bottom line of Big Brown’s pedigree via Really Trying (1x5) and additional crosses from Romanita (1x5) and Bold Ruler (1x6). So Goody Two Shoes appears as a line breeding in Big Brown seven times as 8x9x10x10x11x11x12.

Despite being quite inbred as TB's go Big Brown was a top class performer and wiped the floor with most of his rivals so inbreeding depression was certainly not starting to show with him. His problem will probably come at stud, since I would be looking to outcross to him, but finding suitable TB mares who are not carrying more lines of Northern Dancer could be a problem!

Having said that you should remember that whilst a foal gets 50% from each parent the likelihood of siblings sharing the exact same combination of genes as the parents is much much less and half siblings even less so, you can only give an average on the likelihood of shared genes between them, some may be more related some less depending on the lottery of the shuffling of parental alleles during gamete formation.

It is not something that breeders should not undertake lightly but the formulae has been proven time and time again in domestic plants and animals, if you want to fix type one way is to use these techniques. Even if you take it more slowly in order to produce a type you will be unwittingly be narrowing the gene pool by selecting individuals more homozygous for the type you desire, though you will be doing it more by selection rather than mating relatives.

 

[woodlander]

In breeding is certainly not a simplistic tool and I could not begin to compare my knowledge with that of the thoroughbred experts. In the days when I bred a few thoroughbred, I bred two good workmanlike runners with line breeding third dam to third dam, but my most successful cross was by breeding half siblings to the same stallion. The resultant Pink Gin went on to win £56000 out of a 340 guinea mare by a £150 stallion. Very interesting, but notline breeding.

In the case of my warmblood breeding programme, the spectacular Farouche is line bred to the dam of Florestan. Her dam Dornroeschen is Dimmagio x Caprimond x Der Clou x Garamond and traces back to Glocke, the dam of Florestan. I will continue to breed her mother with sons fo Florestan and Fidermark that suit her in type, not relying only on the back pedigree nick. Even if you manage to double up on some genetic material you have to know whther or not you would really want it. I was once the owner of a Dallas cross out of a Surioso mare. Her head was like a bucket and looked exactly like that of Furioso. In type terms, by the time you go back three generations you could be looking at qualities of gaits and conformation that you would no longer require.

 

[waterlands]

This sort of mating I also found in quite a popular stallion Wild Dice Bewes BWB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wild+dice+bewes I remembered seeing his pedigree somewhere else, then when I tried to look now, it seems that only part of his pedigree is readily available!! And this is a stallion at stud! Look at Atlantus on the dam's side.

As the owner of Wild Dice Bewes... I can assure u that his bloodlines are available anywhere!!!! Including his web page. As for Inbreeding or Linebreeding.. I can only say that Dices Breeding has not hindered or affected negatively his offspring, or himself as a stallion in any way, he won his Licencing and was a successful competition horse himself.
As a sire he has produced horses to National level. They do not show any negative traits or physical/mental issues!!!
So in my eyes (slightly bias I know) Linebreeding has worked!!!!
I am not a authority on genetics so can not pass comment as to whether or not it is the correct thing to do in Equines.. However I can only say that I would happily but a horse which is linebred, and have also done this in my own breeding programme with no adverse affects.

 

[KarynK]

Looking at the pedigree Dice is himself is the result of an out cross mating, it is his mother that is inbred being the result of a Father Daughter mating.

This is what you should do after such a close mating and should give you the bonus of Hybrid Vigour, a rush of new genes if you like, a bit like drinking red bull when tired! You have to look to the 6th generation of his pedigree to find that he is mildly line bred 6x6x6 on Abglanz.

Inbreeding and line-breeding do work and is how us humans have produced our plants and animals since we stopped our nomadic existence and became domiciled!

But you always have to bear in mind that genetic mutations happen randomly and are the reason we are what we and our animals and plants are today. Unfortunately they are more likely to have bad effects. If a mutation takes place in a horse and produces a recessive allele with a bad effect then it may not become apparent for several generations where the horse giving rise to the mutation is inbred upon or a bit longer if line bred upon. Dominant mutations are a bit more obvious and usually more readily identified, but can be spread quicker if not dealt with.

This is where TB's win out as any mutations affecting performance are actively eradicated, where as in a breed that is more generalised and not totally performance orientated they can take hold.

 

[tweedette]

personally I have no problem with inbreeding so long as the animals involved are of good type, it will double up and lock in the good (it can also lock in the bad) plus it keeps the size down - hence miniature horses, dogs, cattle, pigs etc . In breeding, linebreeding? so long as its done with care its fine, just make sure on your next generation 25% of the sires/dams lines are unrelated .