Incident with land owner - WWYD?

RLS said:
the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/ care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.
That aside, no piece of legislation justifies anyone behaving in an aggressive manner towards you.
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No proof, you say? Oh, hang on, she just admitted it on an open forum :rolleyes: :D
 
Sarah1 said:
To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do? And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

I'm not actually sure how I would deal with it sitting here now in the cold light of day but I think in the heat of the moment if I was genuinely scared for my safety, honestly, I'd do whatever I felt I had to to get away.
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It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof.
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields.

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
 
Flummoxed said:
If there were no signs suggesting that this was a right of way, you were committing trespass. You don't have any sympathy from me.
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Seriously??? the OP appologised and said she would leave, hardly think the land owner's actions were justified!!!! OP I don't know how to advise you, other than you acted in self defense because you felt threatened by this man.
 
horserider said:
It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof.
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields.

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
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So you apologised and they accepted that and that was the end of it BUT had her husband been the one who had collared you and started shouting and swearing and grabbing your horse despite you asking him to let go how would you have reacted?
 
Sarah1 said:
To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do? And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

:
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TBH, if you're local to the place in question (theoretically) no, it shouldn't happen at all because you should know your neighbours and their boundaries; certainly in a rural area you should, it's all part and parcel of being neighbourly. It is different if you have travelled to another area and don't know it but then you wouldn't go somewhere that wasn't signed as a ROW for horses it stands to sense that if it's not known then you don't use it without permission.
I'm sure there are many like me who can name each farm and their boundaries (probably the farmer's name too) for many miles around us; it's not being clever it's knowing your boundaries.
 
horserider said:
.

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
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but the OP did apologise and offer to leave immediately :confused: so where's the difference?
 
As an aside, I'm just wondering... if the land owner was female, would it be justifiable to smack her with a whip, too? Or if the rider was male? Would the rider be justified in feeling threatened and lashing out?
 
Sarah1 to answer your question, as a child I would ride wherever took my fancy, as long as I thought I couldn't be seen and/or there were already hoof prints there. If approached by an irate farmer I'd smile and say a friendly hello can I help you? I'd appologise for mistaking the track for a bridleway, answer the question of where the horse was kept, when they'd finished ranting I'd dismount and lead my horse off their land by the safest/quickest/crop-avoiding route available. Yes its terrifying, particularly when they follow you back to the yard in a car still ranting, but you can't be arrested for making a mistake and at no point did I ever feel the need to bash someone.

On one occasion, in a deserted wood, where I was accosted by a dodgy looking member of the public who couldn't realistically have been taking a random stroll there, I did quietly unbuckle my end of the reins with the intention of dropping them and pushing the bridle off over the horses head if he grabbed the rein, to enable me to escape. I wouldn't hit someone with my whip unless they grabbed me (or attempted to). However frightened you are, its important not to make the first move and therefore start the fight which you're hoping to avoid.
 
bonny said:
Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.
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No, Not all land is free access. You can be done for trespassing if you cause damage to crops etc, although this has to be proved first. For example.. a neigbouring farm to my OH had just cut a wheat field, that night a group of dirt bikes trashed the field knackering all the unbaled straw. Farmer caught the lads in the act and had them charged. However said lads then decided to get their own back by trying to set my OH's combine on fire the next day. So your really only aloud on land if your not going to harm it.

Back to the OP, yes she was wrong to be on private land, but the landowner was wrong to be so aggressive.. If it were me being faced with a man in that manor i would have kicked him then cantered off and promptly reported it to the police. ( Yes i have ridden accross private land before, got lost in a forest near Thirsk and had to cross a few empty fields to get to the road. Turning back was not an option as it was getting dark and i was miles from the last turning. So mistakes do happen. I did however go back in the car the next day and apologise to the farmer, but i ended up with permission to ride their in future)
OP please, please get some legal help as its your word against his and it could all get rather messy. Good luck tho, maybe go round your local farms and seek permission next time :)
 
martlin said:
You might be surprised :)
No, I have no idea who OP is, but it's only because I don't WANT to find out. It's a big and popular forum and surprising number of things just come out in the wash.
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It's amazing how common it is. All you have to do is scroll back through previous threads of this ilk to see how quickly the OP is recognised.
 
An anti grabbed my reins out hunting once and I was petrified and walloped him one, the landowner really shouldn't have done what he did either, the trespass doesn't excuse intimidating behaviour. (I only had to hit anti once, it wa sa proper hunting crop).

So in Scotland are you allowed to walk/ride/cycle/whatever all over arable fields and everything? I thought it only applied to uncultivated land. Thank God we don't farm in Scotland in that case!
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Sarah1 to answer your question, as a child I would ride wherever took my fancy, as long as I thought I couldn't be seen and/or there were already hoof prints there. If approached by an irate farmer I'd smile and say a friendly hello can I help you? I'd appologise for mistaking the track for a bridleway, answer the question of where the horse was kept, when they'd finished ranting I'd dismount and lead my horse off their land by the safest/quickest/crop-avoiding route available. Yes its terrifying, particularly when they follow you back to the yard in a car still ranting, but you can't be arrested for making a mistake and at no point did I ever feel the need to bash someone.

On one occasion, in a deserted wood, where I was accosted by a dodgy looking member of the public who couldn't realistically have been taking a random stroll there, I did quietly unbuckle my end of the reins with the intention of dropping them and pushing the bridle off over the horses head if he grabbed the rein, to enable me to escape. I wouldn't hit someone with my whip unless they grabbed me (or attempted to). However frightened you are, its important not to make the first move and therefore start the fight which you're hoping to avoid.
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OP states she apologised and said she would leave immediately & landowner grabbed her horse & would not let go despite repeated requests...

I'm not saying OP was right or wrong but people often do strange things when their adrenaline is up and they are very scared...
 
Haven't read all replies but YOU trespassed, YOU hit someone hard enough to leave welts on them (and that takes fair force) and you think you were assaulted because he held your horses rein....GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!
 
In your situation I would go to the meeting and apologise for being on his land and for overreacting due to being frightened when he caught hold of the horse. It may well not be what you want to do but I'd imagine it will put an end to this far more quickly than arguing the toss about what's fair and who is right or wrong.

Of course if you want to fight it go ahead and get a solicitor involved but that means the whole situation will be hanging over your head for longer. Two wrongs don't make a right but you were wrong in the first place.
 
Hmm Id have called 999 I think - stressing the point I was a sole female and a man was behaving aggressively towards me and preventing me from leaving. Mightve tried to ride into him to get him to drop the reins, if I felt he was threatening the horse or me physically Id've done what you did OP.

You can only explain you were very frightened and despite apologising the man had kept hold of the horse and prevented you being able to get away....
 
Sarah1 said:
So you apologised and they accepted that and that was the end of it BUT had her husband been the one who had collared you and started shouting and swearing and grabbing your horse despite you asking him to let go how would you have reacted?
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The last thing you should do in an explosive situation, is escalate the aggression.
Reduce the adrenaline by being reasonable, calm and conciliatory.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know what other posters have been saying.

However I think what you did was a foolish, stupid and very irresponsible thing to do. This type of behaviour gives other riders a bad name. You are lucky this is not going to court yet. To expect an apology from a man who you assaulted so hard that you left marking on his skin is completely unreasonable.

In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it. He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.

I feel that we aren't getting the entire story here either.
 
Op didn't apologise immediately, her first reply when questioned what she was doing was 'riding' which is sarcastic, rather than apologetic in my book. And for those who say land is different to homes & gardens, how would you feel if I started riding round your horses fields, or you found me randomly using your arenas? Take it that would be ok cos lands different.
Ester- no, I don't feel threatened by men, even a few men on a 14.2, it would take some doing to harm me, & I'm far from hefty. When my 14.2 was recovering from an injury, she was restricted to walk & on box rest. I was hacking on a bridleway at dusk when a man appeared out of a bush & jogged up behind me. I couldn't race off without harming her legs further. The path was wide enough that there was no need for him to get close, quite apart from the fact normal men don't wait in bushes till lone women appear. I just waited till he got next to her quarters, then asked her to move them over, sending the guy flying. Likewise if he'd been at her shoulder holding the reins I would have used her shoulder to shove him. But very different to ops situation, just cos someone's angry that you're trespassing it doesn't follow they are intent on doing physical harm to you.
 
You shouldn't have been on the land on the first place, it's up to you to find out if it's a Bridleway/Byway before you ride on it.

However, the land owner shouldn't have reacted how he did but the chances are he has had problems with people riding on his land before and you were the straw that broke the camel back.

I would contact the police and say you did apologise for riding on the land at the time and you wish to offer your apologies again, however you are not prepard to attend any meeting without seeking legal advice.
 
Sarah1, she wouldn't give her details, that's the difference. The farmer would have wanted to know if there was any offence he could report her for, I presume, so he needed to know who she was. She was sarcastic when asked why she was there, then refused to say who she was (and was perhaps none too friendly about it? Judging by the attitude shown in the first post). It's her manner that fueled the farmers anger. If she wasn't happy to give her details to him she could have suggested he phone the police and she'd give her details to them. The OP was tresspassing. Trying to wriggle out of it was what lead to it all getting out of hand.
 
horserider said:
The last thing you should do in an explosive situation, is escalate the aggression.
Reduce the adrenaline by being reasonable, calm and conciliatory.
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We're all well aware of what you SHOULD do but what people actually do in these sort of situations is sometimes not entirely rational - adrenaline is a funny thing!
 
Hackie said:
There really are two issues here.

Firstly, the tresspassing, for which the OP apologised and tried to rectify by leaving. Hey, everyone makes mistakes, it really wan't the end of the world.

Secondly, the assault, which was self defence for the man preventing her from leaving. Lets face it, if he hadn't grabbed and held the horse, she wouldn't have hit him with her whip.

I don't see from her original post that she would have hit him in response to being told she was tresspassing. I also don't see how by saying sorry, and she was leaving and would not be coming back, she was being sarcastic or rude, as some people have suggested?
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This exactly! Jeez some of you sound as scary as this man!!!! What happened to good old humanity and COMPASSION!! Taking her word for it that she was sorry? Had made a genuine mistake and wasn't being AROGANT as some of you seem to suggest....... Blimey.....back off to CR.......
 
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horserider said:
Where's the difference ?

One apology led to an escalation, the other led to conciliation.
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but that's because there are two people involved in the altercation and the result depends equally on the other person as well as your responses. From the reports there is no difference in what you and the OP did (well prior to the whipping!) , but a difference in what the other party did.. that isn't necessarily the OPs fault.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Sarah1, she wouldn't give her details, that's the difference. The farmer would have wanted to know if there was any offence he could report her for, I presume, so he needed to know who she was. She was sarcastic when asked why she was there, then refused to say who she was (and was perhaps none too friendly about it? Judging by the attitude shown in the first post). It's her manner that fueled the farmers anger. If she wasn't happy to give her details to him she could have suggested he phone the police and she'd give her details to them. The OP was tresspassing. Trying to wriggle out of it was what lead to it all getting out of hand.
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True, she was and yes she probably was a bit sarcastic but it doesn't stop her being scared when things started going tits up!

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with OP I just genuinely wondered what others would do - I wondered, if people answer honestly, how many people would really have kept a cool head? I'm a fairly tough cookie and it takes a lot to rattle me but being totally 100% honest the same situation would possibly have brought about the same reaction from me - though in fairness I'd like to think my inital response wouldn't have come across as arrogant or sarcastic.
 
littlelegs said:
Op didn't apologise immediately, her first reply when questioned what she was doing was 'riding' which is sarcastic, rather than apologetic in my book. And for those who say land is different to homes & gardens, how would you feel if I started riding round your horses fields, or you found me randomly using your arenas? Take it that would be ok cos lands different. I didn't read it as sarcastic per se, I think that is very hard to tell on a forum surely? it was the right answer to a question although 'lost' might have been better had she known it was the landowner Ester- no, I don't feel threatened by men, even a few men on a 14.2 it would take some doing to harm me, & I'm far from hefty. When my 14.2 was recovering from an injury, she was restricted to walk & on box rest. I was hacking on a bridleway at dusk when a man appeared out of a bush & jogged up behind me. I couldn't race off without harming her legs further. The path was wide enough that there was no need for him to get close, quite apart from the fact normal men don't wait in bushes till lone women appear. I just waited till he got next to her quarters, then asked her to move them over, sending the guy flying I don't entirely understand this situation.. I certainly don't feel threatened by men either... but I wouldn't be comfortable if they choose to hold onto my horse while they ranted at me though, . Likewise if he'd been at her shoulder holding the reins I would have used her shoulder to shove him (I'm pondering whether F's do not barge lessons would be forgotten or not if I asked him to!). But very different to ops situation, just cos someone's angry that you're trespassing it doesn't follow they are intent on doing physical harm to you, no it isn't but it is likely to make you concerned that they might and really was never going to be the best way to rectify the situation
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I wouldn't have whipped anyone though! more likely just sat and waited tbh!
 
ester said:
but that's because there are two people involved in the altercation and the result depends equally on the other person as well as your responses. From the reports there is no difference in what you and the OP did (well prior to the whipping!) , but a difference in what the other party did.. that isn't necessarily the OPs fault.
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Well unless the incident was video'd, we'll never know for sure. However, two people could say the exact words in a different way which would get a different response, so of course there's a difference.
 
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