Incident with land owner - WWYD?

CBFan said:
So if someone were to walk brazenly into your front room just because they fancied it, are you telling me you wouldn't behave in an intimidating fashion??!
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It was not his front room, if you look at the Right of Access in Scotland for example there is a clear distinction between access to open land and access to a farmyard or a garden, for example. He over - reacted and OP took action as she was being physically restrained.
 
Thank you all very much for your replies.
No, this is not a wind up. I did not want to give him my details - why would I? I did not know who he was, he was intimidating me, I had already said I was sorry and was going and that I wouldn't come on the land again. He ignored this and decided to be aggressive.
I will go and apologise - I will let you know the outcome. It pains me to have to do this, I feel I deserve an apology from him. I feel the police have been useless. No he was not naked, he had on some clothes but how I am to know if the 'wounds' he showed the cops were inflicted by me, or not? Anyone could've done it. The police did not want him to pursue an assult charge but they warned me that if i don;t 'sound sorry enough' at this meeting, he will pursue charges. I do NOT want this to happen. I am a law abiding person who reacted the only way I could in a horribly stressful situation. What would you have done if it was you whose horse was being held and was getting very upset? If he had reared, he could've knocked out the man or killed him. He is a big powerful boy.

Someone has told me that if land is not marked private or no entry etc, then a law called 'bear's law' means we can walk on it. Otherwise, how would folk walk up to your front door and knock on it?
Anyway, I'll go and hang my head in shame, avoid the area and buy a map.
 
I'd seek legal advice as well...

Okay, so you shouldn’t have been there, but you apologised and tried to leave – that’s completely reasonable. No harm had been done.

However, he prevented you from leaving (because you wouldn't give your contact details to an aggressive stranger??? Who would?) and you had to use force to get him to let you go. You were defending yourself.

If you hadn’t been on a horse and he’s been holding directly onto your person to detain you, this would be clearer, however in my mind its seems pretty much the same thing,

And what he was doing was really dangerous – holding onto a horse’s head like that could provoke even a quiet horse into rearing. No way would I apologise if someone did that to me (but I’m stubborn like that). I'd be see what he can be charged with, as he was the instigator.
 
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Good point fatpiggy. Leaving welts with a crop is pretty hard unless man barely dressed. Plus, as he was holding the reins, op would have to hit him a few times in quick succession to leave more than one welt, meaning the self defence option isn't viable. If she hit him a few times quickly, he didn't get chance to let go after first hit. And it doesn't make sense that he'd continue to stand with his back turned while someone hit him. So either she hit him in quick succession, or continued to hit him after he let go.
 
Don't you dare hang your head in shame! I would be complaining to the police about there attitude! He assaulted you, and put both of you in danger. Trespass is not illegal, he attacked you, self defence, tell them to shove it!
 
I wouldn't being apologising to him for hitting him either. I would apologise for being on the land but that is it. I would also tell him that if someone was to grab my horse like that I would welt them with my whip. Lone female on my own in the middle of nowhere and some strange man (murderer rapist ????) grabbed my horse to restrain me. Any female in that situation would do the same thing.
 
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Did the man ever say he was the landowner or connected to the landowner? Yes you shouldn't have been riding on the land if you didn't know if it was a bridle way but there's no way I would give my details to a total stranger in the middle of a field just because he asked me for them! You are also entitled to use 'reasonable' force to defend yourself and he was holding you against your will. I would seek legal advice from someone qualified though. They may advise advise someway of mutual justice. Restorative justice is a chance for the victim to explain how they felt so you could use it as an opportunity to say sorry but explain why you acted the way you did.
 
Don't hang your head in shame, just put it down to experience. Mediation is about both parties having a satisfactory outcome, if you calmly explain the situation and give a genuine apology then if he chooses not to accept it you have tried your best. The police aren't going to lock you in a room with a raging man and not supervise the session.
 
Coming at this from a Land Agent's point of view I have several land owning clients who are driven to distraction by riders who think they can ride wherever they please. There is often a damn good reason other than sheer grumpiness why landowners and farmers shout at people who are trespassing:

By riding over that tempting looking grass margin you could be jeopardising environmental measures as well as costing the farmer hundreds in lost environmental payments.

There could be other activities like a shoot taking place or about to take place in the area and you riding over the land could be a danger to yourself.

There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality and could cause you a nasty injury if you entered their field.

Whilst he probably scared you by shouting at you and demanding details (presumably so he could pursue a civil tort for trespass against you) it can never be right to hit someone multiple times with your whip.

Go to the meeting, apologise gracefully and consider yourself lucky if he doesn't press charges.
 
There are no witnesses to the man holding on to the horse, so he could say he didn't touch it, just asked the OP to leave/for details and she attacked him.

He may well be lying, but if he has welts from a whip, then there's proof he was hit, nothing to back up the OP though. I'd be apologising, even though I really wouldn't want to if I'd felt that threatened. It's better than a criminal record and it sounds like this bloke isn't too keen to back down.

Whips do mark through clothes, depending on the flexibility and force with which they're used. It hurts! If someone hit me like that, I'd be pushing for assault charges too. But I wouldn't be grabbing hold of someone's horse in the first place.
 
ladyt25 said:
- You were riding on land that you had no reason to suspect you should not be on.
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Precisely. Unless there are BW signs or you have express permission from the land owner then an empty field is not your carte blanche to ride in it. I can't believe the arrogance of the OP for assuming they can go where they like. No wonder riders get a bad name. Bet they wouldn't like it if someone rolled up in the garden and kicked a football about without their permission so why should a farmer's field be any different?
 
I think when he asked you what you were doing there and you said 'riding' was probably where it all started to go wrong for you! I would see that as very cheeky personally.

If you hadnt been on his land none of this would have happened so I am another one with no sympathy at all for you I'm afraid.

So WWID? I would apologise and hope to avoid an assault charge
 
Whilst I believe the attitude of it's fine to ride on unmarked land is very wrong, I also believe it is not clear cut as police leading you to believe. I ride surrounded by inviting fields with open gates, but would never dream of going in unless I had the permission of the landowner. You do owe him an apology for this.

I would not have given my details. TBH I'd have made some up to get rid of him. The instant he laid a hand on the rein he was forcibly detaining you against your wish. You had apologised for your mistake, caused no damage. Why did he need your details? If someone did this to me I wouldn't ask questions, run the horse towards them (I don't carry a whip). That detention would instantly make me fearful of my safety, & I would have no intention of waiting to find out how far he would go. I have had a person threaten my person out hacking, & I did run them off a track with my horse in response. If you'd parked your car on private land without realising, & landowner physically detained you it would be assault on their part. Surely any action to free yourself from a dangerous situation is warrent as defense?
 
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Just to answer your bears law point OP you have a right to walk up to someone's front door as the landowner is deemed to consent to this unless they put up a notice saying otherwise. However that only applies to that situation.
 
hessy12 said:
I did not want to give him my details - why would I? I did not know who he was...

...they warned me that if i don;t 'sound sorry enough' at this meeting, he will pursue charges
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I don't see why he needed your details. I've been approached by a landowner when I accidentally strayed onto his land. He wanted to know where I kept the horse. Why? I explained I took the wrong turn after following farm ride arrows indicating the route. One arrow was at a very jaunty angle and made it impossible to tell which was the correct path. Silly me, I chose the nice open grassy route instead of the dark overgrown muddy route! Definitely don't see why he would need your details at that point seeing as you said you would leave straight away.

I would go and say sorry but also stress the fact that you reacted the way you did as he was frightening your horse and he was putting you and him in a situation where someone could get seriously hurt.
 
Sorry, you left yourself open for this, you knew you shouldn't have been there... simples. Apologise and don't be so arrogant to think you can ride where you like. Holding a rein is not a criminal offence, hitting someone is.
 
combat_claire said:
There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality
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Claire, are you involved in this case?

By the by, I completely agree with your posts, especially reference shoots, add to that, young birds are being put out and fed at this time of year.
 
Good heavens. On behalf of considerate horse riders, I'd like to go to this meeting and apologise to him.

Riding around the countryside like the Lady of the manor and giving someone a good whipping because they object to you trampling across their land isn't quite the done thing these days.

However, if you don't want to apologise, make a lawyer rich instead.
 
I am sorry to hear of this incident.
I would strongly suggest that you get advice from a specialist equine solicitor.
If you are a GOLD member of the BHS you will get free legal advice from their helpline- May be worthwhile to join now just for this.
I would suggest that the person that held on to your horse had commited 'assault'. Even if you were on his land he has no write to make any physical contact with you. He should have simply asked you to leave using a a calm voice. From your description he used a raised voice and therefore you had every right to be in fear of him especially if he grabbed the reins of your horse. I would also suggest that you could make a counter claim for assault.
 
Trespass is not a criminal offence actually so the matter they have asked you to attend for must be over the assault, I actually appreciate how easy it can be to accidentally stray onto private land when bridle ways are unclear! I think he over reacted and I too would have been very afraid of his intentions!
 
I'm sorry but I personally see no need for hitting him with your whip like that. If you felt frightened, you could have just said to him to let go otherwise you'll call the police, and then if he hadn't, I would have calmly rung the police. You were the one out of line, not him.
 
guido16 said:
Claire, are you involved in this case?

By the by, I completely agree with your posts, especially reference shoots, add to that, young birds are being put out and fed at this time of year.
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No definitely not involved. By locality I meant East Anglia seeing that OP is from Norfolk and I reside over border in Cambridgeshire.
 
Miss L Toe said:
Absolute rubbish, OP was apologetic, he was agressive, end of.
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Maybe if you have your head in the clouds.

---------------------------

Use of Force against Those Committing Crime

Prosecutors should exercise particular care when assessing the reasonableness of the force used in those cases in which the alleged victim was, or believed by the accused to have been, at the material time, engaged in committing a crime. ...

In assessing whether it was necessary to use force, prosecutors should bear in mind the period of time in which the person had to decide whether to act against another who he/she thought to be committing an offence.

The circumstances of each case will need to be considered very carefully.
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It is not as black and white as you seem to think.

As C_C has stated there could be any number of reasons why she could have put herself in far more danger walking forwards.

If I was the man in question I'd simply say I was performing a citizens areest to prevent damage to property at which point I was attacked.

If I was the rider I'd say that I was in the process of leaving and thus no requirement to do so.

However as they were the only two people there it'll be up to a third party to decide who's story sounds more likely.

It's not a simple fixed answer.
 
Holding a rein does not constitute assault. OP states horse was 'freaking out' throwing its head and swishing its tail and she was afraid it would rear. It did not rear, so maybe her interpretation of freaking out is different to others. We are only having one side of this story, this incident could have lasted less than 1 minute or 5. BUT she does admit to hitting this man.
I am not condoning this mans behaviour but she is in the wrong, she should go to the police and apologise, you never know the man may admit he was in the wrong too, but he did not commit assault.
 
So if the landowner had grabbed the rider and not the horse that would have been assault? It was a knee jerk reaction to a scary situation, I'm afraid if a stranger tried to restrain me I would do whatever to get free.
 
combat_claire said:
Coming at this from a Land Agent's point of view I have several land owning clients who are driven to distraction by riders who think they can ride wherever they please. There is often a damn good reason other than sheer grumpiness why landowners and farmers shout at people who are trespassing:

By riding over that tempting looking grass margin you could be jeopardising environmental measures as well as costing the farmer hundreds in lost environmental payments.

There could be other activities like a shoot taking place or about to take place in the area and you riding over the land could be a danger to yourself.

There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality and could cause you a nasty injury if you entered their field.

Whilst he probably scared you by shouting at you and demanding details (presumably so he could pursue a civil tort for trespass against you) it can never be right to hit someone multiple times with your whip.

Go to the meeting, apologise gracefully and consider yourself lucky if he doesn't press charges.
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Well with respect you were not there and I didn't hit him 'multiple times'; i hit him until he let go! Then I left. Your post is highly patronising to me.
 
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