Incident with land owner - WWYD?

I've read most of this thread and mt thoughts have swung, but ultimately I can visualise that she's my daughter and what I would want her to do in that situation?

Yes she was wrong to trespass but he took it a step to ar and in my view, he attacked her! In that case and if she was my daughter I would of expected her to do anything she could to get away, even violence as he could of been anyone, done anything and whose to say he wouldn't of??

Shame the OP didn't report the attack.
 
Also we should all be aware of personal safety and not ride where unlikely to be seen especially when on own and much more likely to be seen when on allowed areas even if by other riders.
 
Angry farmer comes up and says you are on his land - (he probably has had plenty of people riding or walking on his land before without having the courtesy of asking if it is ok), - diffuse the ruddy situation immediately by apologising and asking if you can pay him a monthly "rent" to ride on his land in the future if you stick to the boundaries. I am sorry but I can't imagine for one second you said "sorry I will leave immediately and never return" - anyway....as others have said, go to the restorative justice meeting. For heavens sake the police are trying to help you here. You whipped this poor man very badly. Yes he grabbed your reins but there must have been something to happen prior to that - eg was HE worried you were about to trample him. Your attitude here as to how you can get out of this without going and apologising (rather than ending up in court), is quite sad really and possibly what the farmer got that day. People do not have to put up signs all over the place to say they own land, or anything for that matter...frankly, if you know you don't own it, stay off.
 
patterdale said:
I really think that a lot of people replying now need to go back and CAREFULLY read the OP.

OP was trespassing, sarcastic when approached, and when the landowner (understandably IMO) demanded her details (in case of any damage, usually) and held her horses rein (NOT assault) she hit him hard enough and enough times, on the back, to leave several noticable weals.
And she now doesn't want to apologise.

A few things wrong with this for me.....

But for those who think it's ok to trespass on someones land and then assault them with a riding crop.......I hope you don't live near me!!
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+1.

Doesn't a landowner have the right to use reasonable force to remove a trespasser? How does one "remove" a horse, if not by taking hold of the reins?

LO was also quite within his rights to demand the name and address of a trespasser so he could bring an action for damage to crops etc., if necessary.

If the OP seriously felt she was in danger, she should have phoned the police as soon as possible after the incident. That would be the natural and sensible thing to do. But she didn't. She said nothing until the police found her a week later.

If she gets off with having to do no more than make an apology, she can count herself very very lucky indeed in my opinion.
 
I cant believe that this "debate" is still going on.

What if it was your daughter that this happened too? Would you still be saying she was in the wrong when an unknown male approached her, took hold if her horse and demanded her details, not knowing what actually might happen and in this day and age, no one is safe anymore!

Myself, I would probably react in the same way but my mare is unpredictable so either she could get a fright and run or seriously hurt the person holding her. So, a few smacks with the whip is better than a horse biting, kicking, barging, rearing and causing harm that way! :mad:
 
ladyt25 said:
Do people KNOW the exact area she was riding in?
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In some parts of the country (England) it's not always blindingly obvious whether one is on private land or not. For example, in the area of Surrey around Albury, Farley Green, Gomshall, etc. there are bridleways, Forestry Commission land, public heathland spaces, as well as public roads and an extensive network of small lanes. Of course, there's a lot of privately owned land (including farmed) too. One sees lots of "Private property - no trespassing" signs on gates, as you'd expect from somewhere like Surrey. However, because it's all jumbled up, it is rather easy to end up on private land inadvertently, as I discovered on several occasions (although I only felt threatened once - when I was a young boy and had a shotgun pointed at me by an irate gamekeeper on Albury Estate).
 
mon said:
How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous. Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?
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Playing Devil's Advocate here to some extent, may I ask how exactly are you harmed if someone comes on to your land and does no damage? (The last part is crucial, of course - Scots Law doesn't say people are free to go anywhere and do anything they like.)
 
Capriole said:
OP if you are still reading, I think you should take proper legal advice rather than opinions from a forum.
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yes this , absolutely!


I am so glad I too live in Scotland though given some of the opinions on here :rolleyes:

I was hacking down a track a few years ago one of the people who lived along there decided to ‘allow’ her 5 labradors to get out of the garden gate to chase us, because she didnt think horses should be allowed to ride there. Horse went up; I came off; she walked away back into her house; horse bolted into the road but was thankfully caught by a passerby. I rang the police and she received a ‘talking to’.

Thank goodness for the Scottish countryside Access Code. It doesnt give us carte blanche to do what we like, with the rights come responsibilities and you cannot cause damage. the words of Braveheart spring to mind actually.... :D
 
What would I do? Take legal advice - none of us can tell you the best course of action. Please don't base your actions on our advice, talk to a solicitor.
 
Capriole said:
Oh I agree, we can all give opinions, but when it gets into legal advice territory from strangers on the internet Im a bit dubious.
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Agree. I'm happy (obviously) to give an opinion but the OP should not make decisions based on what random strangers with no legal expertise on the 'net say. She should definitely talk to a lawyer.
 
cptrayes said:
THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT ADVICE

The whole point of the Restorative Justice meeting is to AVOID a criminal prosecution.

If this girl apologises she will NOT have a criminal record.

OP, go, apologise, go have a drink and forget all about it. Please, please do not listen to people giving you the wrong advice or you may WELL end up with a criminal record!




..
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Cptrayes - Sadly this is incorrect to as whilst RJ seeks to avoid criminalisation it can if required support a reduced penalty when action is still justified. That was my point in advising OP to talk to a lawyer first.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Exactly! Someone DID once grab my horse's reins and tried to drag me off it - it was extremely frightening and I kicked my foot out of the stirrup and kicked him VERY hard in the jaw. I'm pretty sure it broke - I left him doubled over nursing it and galloped off - and reported the incident to the police when I got home. (I was about 16 at the time!) I would NOT have apologised and - strangely enough - he did not report the incident to the police! :rolleyes:
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This is the key point for me. If she was truly in fear of her life then you report to the police as you did.
In this case it's flipped, he has reported, and in your words... strangely enough... she's kept her head down.
 
I've been avoiding this thread, mostly because a lot of the opinions on here frankly terrify me. I find it astounding that people actually believe the LO has no right to demand details from a trespasser, nor to attempt to prevent the trespasser from crossing his land at speed and potentially doing considerable damage in an attempt to avoid providing those details.

All the LO did was tell the OP off, ask for her details and take hold of her horse's rein when she attempted to leave without giving them? That is not assault, by any definition. It is not unreasonable force and it is NOT disproportionately threatening, given the circumstances. If the OP was scared, it was because she had been caught doing something wrong, not because the LO threatened to do anything untoward. All she had to do was give her details and leave - she chose not to. She then chose to assault the LO with her whip on his own land. There is no question that she is in the wrong.

And, fwiw, this is also a very valid point. The OP's comments clearly suggest she was seeking only validatory answers on this forum, she will not even contemplate that she was wrong. If she is giving an unbiased account, I will be utterly astounded.

jrp204 said:
We re only hearing one side of this story. For all we know OP has ridden in the field everyday for the past 6 wks, has been spotted before, maybe has in the past caused some damage so LO has just cause to ask for her name etc.
Firstly, she knew she shouldn't have been there and if it wasn't the first time she would have been very defensive,and we all know how some people can behave when confronted. We only have her word on all of this and guilt (and she has admitted guilt towards trespass and assault) also can make people exagerate to justify their actions.
Just being devils advocate, if she is correct on all parts, who knows? Then, yes, LO could have handled it better but sorry, if it had happened as she has said, and she was that terrified why did she not phone the police to report it?
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Elsbells said:
I've read most of this thread and mt thoughts have swung, but ultimately I can visualise that she's my daughter and what I would want her to do in that situation?

Yes she was wrong to trespass but he took it a step to ar and in my view, he attacked her! In that case and if she was my daughter I would of expected her to do anything she could to get away, even violence as he could of been anyone, done anything and whose to say he wouldn't of??

Shame the OP didn't report the attack.
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What I find hard to understand is the OP didn't move her horse away from him in the first place; why let him get so close that he could hold the reins when she already knew he was cross at her? Angry man + lonely field + lone female - does she have no sense at all?.:confused:

Great post, JFTD
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Some people on here go freaky if someone pet's their precious horsie. Or, OMG, leads Pookie in from a field, or passes to close on another horse. But yet you think a guy hanging out of a bridle while being quite over the top is just fine and dandy because you own land. Yeah, ok.

Terri
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perfectly good point.

the OP has already stated to the many posters imploring her to swallow her pride and apologise at this mediation meeting that that IS exactly what she is intending to do.

a lot of sensible points but unusually from littlegs a load of rubbish about not undersdtanding how a woman can feel vulnerable to a man on foot just becuase she's on horse back. Its all very well 'moving' your horse's quarters or shoulders to swat a potential aggressor out of the way but not everyone may have such a horse where that was possible, my 4 yr old being a case in point.
littllegs you have obviously never had the life scared out of you riding alone in a quiet wooded bridleway when a male jumps out of the bushes and tries to pull you off your horse as i have. in the situation where adrenaline takes over and you genuinely fear for your safety i assure you you dont care WHERE you lash out, you just DO to try to get away.

its absolute bull crap to say you cannot be vulnerable just because you're mounted on horseback.
 
glenruby said:
Self defence is also no excuse for assault in the eyes of the law.
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Are you sure about that? I thought people are allowed in law to use 'reasonable force' to protect themselves if they believe they are in danger. What consitutes 'reasonable force' can be argued about, but it can include actions that would certainly considered as assault in other circumstances, such as striking someone.
 
I've read this thread and cannot believe some peoples opinions.

If I walked into your home uninvited, or came into your place of work and trampled your hard work would you feel the same?

Is it any wonder land owners are so intollerant of horse riders riding where they have no right to be?

When will people realise that people derive their living from land, and it is unacceptable to ride over it with no permission or due respect.

owners of land and property have a duty of care for anyone on their land, whether they are trespassing or not, we were in a legal battle a few years ago with a rider who was injured on our land without permission to be there, put yourself in that position and realise why many land owners will not tollerate trespassing.

I am completely unsympathetic and wish people could realise land is not cheap and you cannot ride wherever you please.
 
I've not read all the replies but my only experience with something like this was with a saboteur who grabbed someones rein in the same way. In court, this was likened to a passenger grabbing the steering wheel whilst you are driving. Completely unacceptable. Yes, you were probably trespassing and given the opportunity you would have apologised sincerely and removed yourself. However, the situation was taken out of your hands by the land owner grabbing your horse. I would plead on these lines. Bloody ell, we all make mistakes.
 
Maesfen said:
What I find hard to understand is the OP didn't move her horse away from him in the first place; why let him get so close that he could hold the reins when she already knew he was cross at her? Angry man + lonely field + lone female - does she have no sense at all?.:confused:

Great post, JFTD
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i dont know either Maesfen but maybe you had to be there.
its all very well making rational judgements about what the OP should or shouldnt have done but if the scenario played out as she says it did at the time when she was scared and adrenaline was kicking in if someone's approached you quickly ofcourse you might initially hold you ground and everything after that can escalate very quickly.

its all very well sitting there from the comfort of your armchair picking holes in the OP's story because 'A' wasnt close enough to 'B' in your considered opinion to make it logical.
Maybe you'd like a accident investigator's diagram drawn for you measuring the metaphorical skid marks?

amazing how judgemental some of you can be from the other side of a keyboard.
 
RTE No one is saying she didn't trepass or that it was ok to do so simply that once the criminal assault was triggered then the civil trespass matter pretty much becomes a secondary issue. The landowner had a point to begin with and then overstepped the mark and totally changed the situation into a criminal matter.

For what it's worth I own land and wouldn't dream of being so physical or nasty.
 
I disagree lula, on a horse I don't feel vulnerable. I have been in fear for my life due to a man intent on harming me, but not while mounted, the fright cannot be compared. I see what you mean re not all horses being at a level you can use quarters/shoulders to push someone precisely. But under normal circumstances I would have had other options, even on a 4yr old. When it happened to me, I knew anything more strenuous than walk would have been the end of my ponies hind ligaments. So I did the only thing available. I also think your, or my, situation was different to ops, in that in ops case it wasn't obvious he was intent on harm. If he had have made an attempt to grab her then of course I'd agree to do whatever it took. But at that point, holding the rein & demanding details I wouldn't see it as a physical threat. Maybe because I have been in a dire situation minus a horse, having a horse as a weapon I don't feel vulnerable. And whatever we think, I think the non horsey would agree, most people know infantry are vulnerable to cavalry, & I suspect that's the view non horsey police or magistrates would take, person on horseback vs person on foot.
 
If you believe the OP (I do), it sounds as if the farmer grabbed her rein first and then demanded her details. I don't believe there's any law saying she has to give him that information anyway, but as soon as someone grabbed my horse, I know I'd freak and go onto full fight or flight mode. They sure as hell wouldn't get my details.

I ask again, if someone grabbed your horse's rein and started screaming at you (even if you had accidentally strayed onto their land) and refused to let go, what would you do?
 
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