Increasing protein to build top line?

Paint Me Proud

Paint Me Proud

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2010
Messages
4,166
Visit site
Had a feed company visit the yard today with a weighbridge and was given feed advice.
Being scientifically minded I dont just accept what someone tells me without backing it up from a differnt source so I was hoping you lovely people on HHO can be my sounding board.

Kasper's stats:
16.2h hunter type
6 years old
Worked around 5 times a week (30 mins a time) and couple of weekend a month we may go xc, arena eventing, jumping, dressage etc but nothing very high level.
Turned out for approx 6-7 hours a day, in over night
3 slices of hay overnight
Evening bucket feed consists of 1 scoop of Chestnut Gold mix, 2 scoops of sweet chaff, sprinkle of vit and min supplement, sprinkle of biotin supplement. Carrots when I have them.
Weighbridge weight for today 581kg

The feed company rep condition scored him at a 5, so ideal weight, but said he was lacking topline due to not having enough protein in his diet. I said he was lacking in topline due to him not working correctly through his back as he is resistant to the contact and often hollows, he has lovely muscle under his neck, lol!
She still said to change his feed to Performance Balancer and an alfalfa based chaff and that this would provide the protein that he needs to build up the muscles for the topline.

My current mix from Chestnut is 10% protein and the balancer recommended is 26% protein.

Can anyone shed any light on if this extra protein will indeed build up topline?

I am interested in trying it if it will indeed help but dont want to just blindly change his diet without being sure it is suitable first.

Thanks for reading :)
 
Extra protein will definitely help build topline when it is combined with the correct work.

I like Alfalfa.
 
As you have said it is the work that will build up a correct topline, having a good diet will help but if he is only doing 30 mins exercise 5x a week and not working correctly that is probably the main reason he lacks the desired muscle tone, plenty of hacking would be more beneficial than chucking feed into him, if he does not increase the work it is likely to just make him fatter.
 
Horses do need enough protein in their diet to build muscle, but adding additional protein above what they need won't build extra muscle! Without analysing your grazing and forage, it is difficult to know whether your horse needs more protein or not. However, your average horse in light work on decent hay and grazing during the spring/summer/autumn months are not particularly likely to be lacking in protein. If your horse doesn't work correctly, then adding more protein is not likely to improve muscle over his topline. So you need to first eliminate any physical problems that might stop your horse working correctly, then work on educating him to work in the correct frame.

BTW, what is the 'sweet chaff' that you mention in his diet? Is this a straw-based, molassed chaff? If so, you could feed less of that, but perhaps increase his hay to compensate. Three slices of hay (presumably from a conventional small bale) doesn't sound a lot, and would be better and more nutritious for him to have extra hay than lots of straw-based chaff.
 
TGM said:
Horses do need enough protein in their diet to build muscle, but adding additional protein above what they need won't build extra muscle! Without analysing your grazing and forage, it is difficult to know whether your horse needs more protein or not. However, your average horse in light work on decent hay and grazing during the spring/summer/autumn months are not particularly likely to be lacking in protein. If your horse doesn't work correctly, then adding more protein is not likely to improve muscle over his topline. So you need to first eliminate any physical problems that might stop your horse working correctly, then work on educating him to work in the correct frame.

BTW, what is the 'sweet chaff' that you mention in his diet? Is this a straw-based, molassed chaff? If so, you could feed less of that, but perhaps increase his hay to compensate. Three slices of hay (presumably from a conventional small bale) doesn't sound a lot, and would be better and more nutritious for him to have extra hay than lots of straw-based chaff.
Click to expand...

He does work correctly about 60% of the time and we have weekly lessons with a good dressage trainer, he's just not naturally built in a way that makes collection easy so his natural responce to something being difficult is to come above the vertical.

Yes I think the chaff is a starw based molassed chaff but I'd have to double check the bag, it's made by the local feed merchant, I was just using it to bulk out his bucket a bit as he doesnt have much of the mix.

I'm really confused after today as to what to feed, carry on the same or change. Although I've just looked at the Performane balancer and it's around £30 a bag!!
 
Paint Me Proud said:
He does work correctly about 60% of the time and we have weekly lessons with a good dressage trainer, he's just not naturally built in a way that makes collection easy so his natural responce to something being difficult is to come above the vertical.

Yes I think the chaff is a starw based molassed chaff but I'd have to double check the bag, it's made by the local feed merchant, I was just using it to bulk out his bucket a bit as he doesnt have much of the mix.

I'm really confused after today as to what to feed, carry on the same or change. Although I've just looked at the Performane balancer and it's around £30 a bag!!
Click to expand...
The body can not store protein, what its doesn't use it pees out. At certain times more protein is needed that others for muscle repair and growth, feeding more protein with out exercising the muscles you want to enlarge is a waste of time.
Think of working draught horses versus a fit racehorse, both will have huge muscle groups but little body fat. if the horse does not naturally have good sized muscles in the right places its harder to develop them. To most people building topline is just making them fatter to disguise lack of muscle, old show mans trick.
 
The thing about a balancer is that it is intended to supply certain amino acids that are often deficient in the feed .It has a high protein content because that is what it is intended to balance. Overall ,the total protein content should not increase greatly but the protein quality will. Topline is produced by correct exercise backed up with energy and protein of adequate quality. If for example we were to say that the horse requires 10% protein of the correct quality ,yet the 10% we feed is lacking in essential aminoacids ,we may effectively only be feeding 5% and the diet is inadequate. A balancer is intended to correct this.
 
Increase his hill work and his hacking to build him up, take care to work him using his hindquarters, if he has muscle in the wrong place it will take threee months to re model him, use long reining wih no side reins, have your instructor show you how.
The cost of the feed should be calculated per day not per bag.
He would be better out 24/7 and fed a plain diet, no sugary foods .... no need to feed him like a grand prix dressage horse in competition mode.
And dont force his head down, but learn to ride with elegance and in balance, he needs to accept the bit, not be forced in to an outline.
Try gridwork with poles and othe fun things see 101 excercises [amazon]
 
Last edited:
Get rid of the mix as chances are its full of crap you don't need to feed anyway. Alfalfa is a good source of protein for them I've fed mine power and performance in The past as I have found the Allen and page feeds aren't as full of useless fillers that the bagged mixes are. I agree with the hill work and interval training, always good to help build up top line. I like to do my walk to canter transitions on hills when out as helps them lift and use themselves more. I have fed balances in the past and haven't found them to be beneficial.
 
I suggest you go through what you are feeding him, by weight, and assess just how much protein he is getting - this ideally means having your forage tested too, but unless you know the base line you will struggle to assess his further needs. For example if you are feeding 100 gms of a mix which is 10% protein twice a day he is getting 20 gms per day from that mix. Do the same with everything else he is feeding then find out what his requirements are per day - is that enough for his size and weight? Word to the wise too - bran is a good filler and fibre source and does contain a fair amount of protein. I can't remember the figure but Forageplus published it recently, they will tell you.
They analysed my underweight TBs diet for me last month and to my surprise found he needed about 4 x as much of the feed I was giving, plus some other elements which were lacking. In three weeks he went from 515kg to 574kg by weight tape, so it works.
But if the muscle you need is in a particular area it needs work to build that muscle in particular once you have the right protein to supply it.
 
thanks for the replies, really interesting read.
Although think I've maybe come across as a clueless newbie, oops, which I am not so rest assure all I know what I'm doing, lol :D
I had just never heard about the protein level being so important, I have spoken with numerous feed reps in the past and none had ever mentioned it, so was surprised when the Baileys rep came in so heavy on it.

The reply to a few points made :-
Sadly 24/7 turnout is not available
Hillwork is also very hard to come by in Birmingham greenbelt :( Similarly I am limited to when I can hack as after work the lanes are too busy with the rush hour rat run that iI dont like going out as I dont feel it's safe. Really jealous of those that live in the countryside.
Thanks for the suggestion of long reining, it is alreasy something we do but I'll be honest not very often so I'll try and add it into our training more often. Sadly though I cannot lunge as I suffer with motion sickness and it makes me feel too uwell.
I already have that 101 exercises book, recommend it! :D

I'm going to contact a few other feed companies and see what they recommend and will then re-assess his current diet to see if it does need a change.
 
Just bear in mind the feed company nutritionists are there to sell their products, and that you can buy protein as lysine or methionine (good for feet) on its own rather than revise his whole diet.
 
I have had fantastic results feeding Myoplast to horses in work .
That's all I would do now given that mine get some linseed everyday anyway as a protein source .
 
JillA said:
Just bear in mind the feed company nutritionists are there to sell their products, and that you can buy protein as lysine or methionine (good for feet) on its own rather than revise his whole diet.
Click to expand...

Just had a look at the lysine which looks like it could be an effective way of introducing some additional protein, thanks (I've used lysine at work but never crossed my mind to search for the base amino acids as a supplement)
 
Agree with the others that protein on its own won't build topline, but in conjunction with the right work then it could help. I've used Saracen rice bran equijewel with success but nowadays I'd probably opt for linseed as a first attempt. I'd suggest pole work if you are lacking hills and don't want to lunge, it's really gymnastic for them, and you can do it in hand or ridden.
 
taken these this afternoon of his topline

20160515_174218_zpsllc7rxad.jpg

20160515_174908_zpsnz8cidj8.jpg

20160515_180344_zpsx3ygf35e.jpg
 
JillA said:
Might be stating the obvious but are you 100% happy that his saddle is a good fit?
Click to expand...

We had issues with his saddle due to a bad saddle fitter who repeatedly overflocked it and caused muscle atrophy behind his wither. We have since changed saddle fitter and had it reflocked but I am hoping to get rid of this saddle completely at some point this year, I only use it for jumping and xc now. He has a dressage saddle that was fitted in November, we are due a check of that one but I am happy with the fit.
He has built up a small amount of muscle behind the wither since the change but it is taking time and we are by no means where I want it to be yet.
 
Goldenstar said:
I have had fantastic results feeding Myoplast to horses in work .
.
Click to expand...

Vet recommended this to me - after a bit of research found out the active ingredient in Myoplast was spirulina (with sugar added to make it palatable) so I just fed that. One of mine benefits from it as certain hays don't have enough protein for him. He was already getting linseed and lysine.
 
Looking at the photos, I'd def say you had a saddle problem, as plenty of muscle on his quarters. If he's going hollow, that would account for the built up underneath neck. Also you say you feed a scoop. Whats that on poundage? I always weigh my feed if I'm not sure about what the horses are getting, and am sometimes quite surprised by how little it is. I know its summer, but you really need to feed a little more of a good quality protein. Like somebody else says, keep off mixes because of the sugar content. A good grass nut and some grazeon, or similar should work well. I'm afraid I'm "old school" and have never fed a balancer in my life. If any of my horses doesn't look fantastic in their coat, I have an analysis done to check foe min/vit deficiencies.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top