Indiscriminate breeding musings

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BBH

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I have been reading H&H article about welfare charities facing huge demand and that there have been systemic failings one of which was over breeding . It got me thinking that there are just too many horses bred who fall into bad circumstances and charities have to clear the mess.

We always talk of small time irresponsible people causing the problem but aren't some
' names ' equally to blame ? Watching Olympia we heard of the Billy stud breeding hundreds / thousands to get the few that will make top class jumpers and then Peter Charles setting up a breeding programme to keep his son in horses . We all know breeding world class horses is Uber difficult and the numbers of foalings to get 'the one' is astronomical, what happens to the rest ? Surely to get welfare issues under control everyone has to play there part ?
 
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I think they are 2 very different issues. The wastage from these studs will either find an amateur home or be put down at home/ go to the abattoir. They won’t end up in bin-end sales being passed around for pennies or abandoned on waste land. I do remember a bit of uproar when a stud put a couple of older broodmares through a low end sale.
The bigger breeding operations in Europe farm their horses and cull the weakest stock.
 
Theres homes for well bred horses that dont make the grade. There isnt homes for poorly put together, semi feral. pony sized cobs. The people who might want a cob dont want it till its 6yrs plus, broken, educated and safe for a novice/nervous person. They dont want them as young colts with dodgy backgrounds. People do want the Billy stud youngstock at any age.
 
Leo Walker said:
Theres homes for well bred horses that dont make the grade. People do want the Billy stud youngstock at any age.
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My old boss bought a "Billy" horse. Quite why i dont know, the state he was in. he was 8. came from a dealer who had bought him from another dealer. He had so many issues, both vets who saw him said he neesed pts immedietely. So they do fall through the cracks.
 
There was a local stud who had a top class 1.40 jumping stallion and some equally good mares, all bred to the hilt. A fair few of their youngsters didn't make the pro grade but were far too hot and buzzy for most amateurs.

Some of them ended up falling through the cracks and would occasionally turn up at the local bin end sale.

I wouldn't dream of thinking I could ride a Billy horse and I used to consider myself a decent rider. I think there's a huge gulf between most of us and those horses, and over breeding them is an issue.
 
If supply is greater than demand what ever you are breeding thats too many. The horse owner has changed over the years and I think professional horse people, or those that sell horses have been very slow to realise the effects of this on the sales market.
There are lots of horses now who are simply companion animals, they may not have started that way, but we keep horses in their infirmatey and old age. Its seems very rare now that people want to admit or want to get rid of something because its unsuitable for what they bought it for.
 
What ever foal is bred it should be for a purpose if it cannot fulfill that purpose safely and be of suffucient value quality or temperament then it is the breeders responsibility to keep it for its lifetime, or PTS that foal/horse
So no one should breed a foal unless they can guarantee its future
 
windand rain said:
What ever foal is bred it should be for a purpose if it cannot fulfill that purpose safely and be of suffucient value quality or temperament then it is the breeders responsibility to keep it for its lifetime, or PTS that foal/horse
So no one should breed a foal unless they can guarantee its future
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If only this was the prevailing attitude. Having had a prolonged tour of the low end of the UK horse market and meeting a range of bin end pop up dealers who are all about 12 and have such a scant regard for horses' welfare and all want to "break in" a horse in 2 seconds flat, I would heistate to breed anything for any reason unless I had my own place and enough funds to know I would never lose it.
 
Leo Walker said:
Theres homes for well bred horses that dont make the grade. There isnt homes for poorly put together, semi feral. pony sized cobs. The people who might want a cob dont want it till its 6yrs plus, broken, educated and safe for a novice/nervous person. They dont want them as young colts with dodgy backgrounds. People do want the Billy stud youngstock at any age.
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If you saw some of their youngsters in the videos they put up, you'd wonder why they bred them in the first place.
 
ester said:
but then we still get calls for ordinary horses for people?
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But generally not that kind of ordinary horse. I've certainly known plenty of well bred horses passed from pillar to post because temprementally they were never that suited to the general leisure market and they never really had the sort of training required to covert them.

They are not a problem for rescues the way that undersized cobs are, but they certainly play a part in filling the market with not really suitable animals
 
Yes there must be a huge market for kind, 16hh+ good looking, able to average levels, sound, well schooled and sensible horses which is why so many people despair of finding them. Failed competition horses rarely fit that bill nor do bin end small cobs.
If I had my time over I would breed connie cross tb horses make sure they were as above by employing the right people to train them and the right life style to ensure they had the best possible start. Able to novice dressage, capable of jumping 100cm well and happy to do BE90/100. Any that were nuts or not right would stay with me or be PTS or be loaned to people who like that sort until they were sure I would also have a returns policy where any foal bred would have a home or death with dignity if needed
 
windand rain said:
Yes there must be a huge market for kind, 16hh+ good looking, able to average levels, sound, well schooled and sensible horses which is why so many people despair of finding them. Failed competition horses rarely fit that bill nor do bin end small cobs.
If I had my time over I would breed connie cross tb horses make sure they were as above by employing the right people to train them and the right life style to ensure they had the best possible start. Able to novice dressage, capable of jumping 100cm well and happy to do BE90/100. Any that were nuts or not right would stay with me or be PTS or be loaned to people who like that sort until they were sure I would also have a returns policy where any foal bred would have a home or death with dignity if needed
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You'd need a lafge lottery win ro fund all that!
 
Leo Walker said:
You'd need a lafge lottery win ro fund all that!
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That was my first thought, the reason people breed top level horses, or aim to, is the reward from breeding a few special ones will fund the more ordinary, sorry ester, ones that sell for less, the bottom end spend nothing, often don't even pay for their grazing so any income is a profit.

To breed quality half bred types aimed at leisure riders will not pay its way when everything is considered if they are produced properly, the breeder will soon end up bankrupt or move into the top end market if they have any money left;)
 
windand rain said:
Yes there must be a huge market for kind, 16hh+ good looking, able to average levels, sound, well schooled and sensible horses which is why so many people despair of finding them. Failed competition horses rarely fit that bill nor do bin end small cobs.
If I had my time over I would breed connie cross tb horses make sure they were as above by employing the right people to train them and the right life style to ensure they had the best possible start. Able to novice dressage, capable of jumping 100cm well and happy to do BE90/100. Any that were nuts or not right would stay with me or be PTS or be loaned to people who like that sort until they were sure I would also have a returns policy where any foal bred would have a home or death with dignity if needed
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And that will cost a huge amount of money. I have a four year old this year. Its taken three years of the feeding, if he is on hay alone its about a bale a day, farrier every eight weeks, worming, vaccination, his studfee was £500 and then standing castration is about £300, he is a big horse. So what should I charge?
I have an old pony I sold as a three year old, to an experienced knowledgable home, I followed his career and in his time he was worth a lot of money. Looking at his passport he has changed homes every two years, I bought him back because he was advertised on Preloved three times in two years and have I worked out four homes in that time. He now has EMS and has a couple of things which he never had as a three year old that make me think that he has been stuffed for showing and then starved when he was bordering on laminitic. If this happans to a well bred, well conformed pony, with an amazing tremprement good help the rest
 
scruffyponies said:
The ones I see being passed around are frequently nice horses, ruined by incompetent handling.
Sadly, whilst most people 'want' pretty, quality horses, most leisure riders would be better served by the little cobs they snobbishly pass over.
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yes! no matter what they are the training input is crucial

i agree about what most people need. and a lot have horses too big
 
be positive said:
That was my first thought, the reason people breed top level horses, or aim to, is the reward from breeding a few special ones will fund the more ordinary, sorry ester, ones that sell for less, the bottom end spend nothing, often don't even pay for their grazing so any income is a profit.

To breed quality half bred types aimed at leisure riders will not pay its way when everything is considered if they are produced properly, the breeder will soon end up bankrupt or move into the top end market if they have any money left;)
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That's why I have stopped breeding them. My Welsh D's filled the criteria of being good looking, approx 15.2hh with a good temperament. I used to show them at the Futurity as foals, do well, and then sell them, but hardly anybody wants to take on a foal and wait 4 years. To keep them all and bring on especially on our waterlogged ground just wasn't viable, and I was a very small hobby breeder.
 
I agree but every foal I have bred has been carefully considered and bred for its purpose It would never be a commercial prospect but non of the foals I have bred have been bred to sell which is why there are not many with my prefix. I did not do it for the money but for the joy and pleasure so money never really came into it. But a good horse costs no more to rear than a bad one so why not at least start out with the correct genetics for the biggest market Half bred horses with great temperaments and trainability bred for the pleasure of it will to my mind have a much better prospect of a good life than a dross end overbred looking for olympians failure
 
cundlegreen said:
I'm not saying they bred from rubbish, but the lot I saw up for auction online were very ordinary no matter how they were bred.
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But what do you mean by ordinary? Do you mean they weren't good looking, or do good movers, or do you mean they weren't talented? I used to work with two Billy stud mares and neither was especially good looking but they were super jumpers and had been great rides for a not especially talented amateur lady rider, then stepped it up a gear when she gave up and the ride was given to a pro. But if you just looked at them on the ground you wouldn't get the hype.
 
Snowfilly said:
I wouldn't dream of thinking I could ride a Billy horse and I used to consider myself a decent rider. I think there's a huge gulf between most of us and those horses, and over breeding them is an issue.
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You absolutely could ride a Billy horse, and I know this because I used to ride two regularly when I was a groom and I am a very average rider.
 
windand rain said:
a dross end overbred looking for olympians failure
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That isnt what is produced though! They produce sports horses. The ones that go to the olympics are few and far between but there is a huge range of them and as HR has just pointed out, many are perfectly suitable for amateurs.

I knew a welsh x TB that was lethal to handle and a sod to ride, so its not the case that all half breeds will come out angelic, make the 16 hands everyone wants and be totally suitable for an amateur. Thats why breeding isnt straight forward. But at least if you start out with good quality you shouldnt get dross. Its irrelevant anyway as its not financially viable to breed the nice RC allrounders for the vast majority of people.
 
Snowfilly said:
There was a local stud who had a top class 1.40 jumping stallion and some equally good mares, all bred to the hilt. A fair few of their youngsters didn't make the pro grade but were far too hot and buzzy for most amateurs.

Some of them ended up falling through the cracks and would occasionally turn up at the local bin end sale.

I wouldn't dream of thinking I could ride a Billy horse and I used to consider myself a decent rider. I think there's a huge gulf between most of us and those horses, and over breeding them is an issue.
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That is so, so true. I do think that there is a potential over breeding problem. The good studs are breeding quality animals, but not everyone can ride or have the time for a quality animal.

Are there any studs, really, breeding a family type horse? And if there was, would a potential purchaser be willing to pay the price for what it cost to produce?

I know someone who bred Highland ponies, she also had a riding school and in the winter with fewer lessons and summer customers her staff would be spending time breaking-in and schooling the ponies, ready to be sold in their 4 year spring/summer, so she had waited 5 years for something to sell. There were a few ups and downs, as Highlands are not always the easiest of ponies .................. Last I heard she had left all the mares barren as she was finding it not economic for various reasons.

I happen to own a Morgan horse, and I bought him mostly for his temperament, which as an American said, is very forgiving! I thought that if I had won the lottery I would have established a Morgan stud and sold the horses as broken in and going well as a family horse. The trouble is that most of the Morgan studs in the UK have been more interested in Morgan showing and driving and some of the ones that did produce a family type horse have got old and retired.

Show me a stud that produces an animal suitable as an all rounder family type horse.
 
HashRouge said:
But what do you mean by ordinary? Do you mean they weren't good looking, or do good movers, or do you mean they weren't talented? I used to work with two Billy stud mares and neither was especially good looking but they were super jumpers and had been great rides for a not especially talented amateur lady rider, then stepped it up a gear when she gave up and the ride was given to a pro. But if you just looked at them on the ground you wouldn't get the hype.
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Didn't move or jump like I would expect from that stud.
 
cundlegreen said:
That's why I have stopped breeding them. My Welsh D's filled the criteria of being good looking, approx 15.2hh with a good temperament. I used to show them at the Futurity as foals, do well, and then sell them, but hardly anybody wants to take on a foal and wait 4 years. To keep them all and bring on especially on our waterlogged ground just wasn't viable, and I was a very small hobby breeder.
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Edited to add welsh D cross TB's.
 
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