Individual turnout

[Boulty]

Going a wee bit off topic for a mo regarding reseeding but as long as your yard are either not going to notice / don’t mind you doing it my yard owner has been experimenting with saving up all her hay dust / leftover bits of haynets etc and spreading it back over her hay fields and it seems to have worked really well for improving biodiversity. (She does also spread poo at appropriate times of year for a bit of extra organic matter… this part may be less desirable on grazing land I guess). Just a random zero cost thing to try for anyone with the patience to do it Obviously only works if there’s some field rotation going on.

 

[expanding_horizon]

We have absolutely terrible grazing and just supplement with hay.
Tbh I've always thought it was more important they were out and stretching their legs than grass quality.

I think good grass cover keeps them happy in the field, is good for gut health and results in less mud.

But yes out with hay beats being in.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

Yes so I’m not sure why you’re saying that my point about grass needing reseeded is bad?
Since you know the grass your horse is on needed to be reseeded for you to get good grass next year
It seems like you do agree with my point and have reseeded your grass yourself and yet you’re arguing with me?
It just seems like bad grass management from your yo

I didn’t say it was bad I think there is a misunderstanding. The point I’m trying to make is that in my experience of the livery yards I’ve been on don’t reseed or even overseed paddocks for many years if ever even if it would be good for the pasture. There is often very little active positive pasture management.

 

[JBM]

I didn’t say it was bad I think there is a misunderstanding. The point I’m trying to make is that in my experience of the livery yards I’ve been on don’t reseed or even overseed paddocks for many years if ever even if it would be good for the pasture. There is often very little active positive pasture management.

Ah I see sorry for the misunderstanding!
I completely get what you’re saying and see where I got confused.
That must be really annoying

 

[Boulty]

I’d agree with the point that most yards do as little pasture management as they can get away with which is why I’m so fascinated watching someone who is trying to do positive things to improve what’s there in a way that doesn’t break the bank / that frees up funds for other projects and seeing the results. It’s so refreshing to have someone so passionate about looking after their land and making it suit the horses needs better (& well obviously increasing the hay yield is a positive thing too!). It’s a track system so they’re not going to actually be grazing these fields (well not unless something goes very wrong!) but still cool to watch what’s grown this year that didn’t last year etc.

 

[Tiger tiger]

Is your horse on individual turnout or is your horse out in a herd?
What reason do you have for either choice?
If you know how I can improve this poll let me know!

Its disgusting the amount of yards that insist on it, i like my own horses to go out together but over recent years even renting feilds on a diy basis the owners dont like horses together. Granted Not all horses can go out in pairs or groups but when thats not possible atleast have the understanding of having atleast one area they can neck over a solid fence. Im sick to back teeth of seeing so many yards completely oblivious to horses basic needs

 

[conniegirl]

We had our own land for over 25 years. We reseeded the first year we moved in as it had been over grazed horrifically, 15 shetlands, some sheep and some pigs on 3 acres out 24/7 for 15years) We took 2 cuts of hay and didn’t graze anything on it that year.

For the next 24 years we had 5 ponies on it 24/7 in summer and 12 hours a day in winter. We never reseeded and i think only once did we fertilise. We never fed hay out in summer and only bery rarely in winter (e.g when there was snow on the ground they got hay out)

Never had a case of lami, despite every pony being a native pony. We showed throughout that time and never had one that looked a bit light either.

Horses and particularly ponies do not need brilliant grass and grass that has been long established always copes better.

 

[Indy]

You want to rain in on the level of sarcasm there? I did say IF
All grass needs to be reseeded at some point livery yard or not.

My horses graze a field which hasn't been reseeded or fertilized (apart from grazing sheep on it) since 1947 according to the farm diaries, this year I've had to section it off because the horses couldn't manage the grass and we got a fabulous crop of hay off it

 

[Goldenstar]

The acre plus one for the first horse and an acre for every extra is a rule of thumb for keep ie feeding that horse .
It’s not a reference to a large enough area for giving enough exercise and and interesting life an acre is way to small for that .

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Ive no idea what caused it. He was a colt until 3 but he ran with a bachelor herd at that point.
He has then been in various good homes as a top level childs show pony (qualifying HOYS multiple times, winning at RIHS) whilst being home produced.

To the best of my knowledge he has never been abused, miss-treated or starved.
As i said over a fence, a stable wall, or inhand he is sweet as pie, will groom, kiss and graze next to a horse no problem.

Ridden he is completely horse neutral ive had several riders use his bum as a brake (happens occasionally when you are in classes with 8 yr old kids) and ive put him between a class of children on first ridden ponies and a loose section A stallion who had already flattened several people and horses. he just stood there, puffed up a bit and that shocked the stallion enough that i could grab it.
I happily let him loose in that situation as i knew that the worst he would do whilst tacked up would be to mug a bystander for polos and i needed both hands for the stallion.

He happily grazed the other side of an electric fence with that Haffy mare for months before and after we tried turning them out together. it was the last time i tried to turn him out with anything.

What ever stopped him being willing to live in the same space as another may have involved a white section A though as it is those that he is the worst with.

My Arabi was cut at 4 and was turned out alone from the age of 2, the stud had him with another colt but they started fighting so they were separated, he has been turned out with various geldings and mares over the years and been fine.

But he also has a tendency to take a dislike to some horses and then he will chase and bite and he doesn't stop, so I'm careful who his put with and his lived happily with Louis for nearly 10 years.

So maybe it is the late gelding that can cause a problem maybe some stallion traits just will always remain and can make them tricky with horses, but I totally agree with you in respect of why persevere at the risk of another horse or him getting hurt it's not worth it.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I have been pondering this during the early hours (as you do ). It seems that a large part of the problem these days (showing my age again but ho hum) large livery yards do not have the corresponding amount of acreage for ideal grazing and turnout, even taking into account that each horse might be stabled for 12 hours overnight. As a child our private/livery yard had about 20 stables and over 40 acres of grazing. Some horses lived out 24/7. Stabled horses were always turned out at night every night of the year with the fields usual 24/7 residents. Lack of unpoached grazing was never an issue, I never saw one serious field injury, the only fatality was when a young horse dropped dead when they all galloped around the field having a hooley. Other than that just minor scrapes and bites, which I consider normal in the cause of herd interaction and play.

I know of one livery yard that houses over 40 horses (all liveries) and has only 8 acres of extremely bare grazing, there is a lot of squabbling at the gateway when you try and bring in or turn out. Most horses seem to spend their turn out time (usually the whole day) just loitering around the gateway. They do have some quite serious field injuries from time to time, unsurprisingly.

Another smaller yard I know of has about 15 liveries and only 5 acres of land. The set up is similar to the larger one I mentioned and I have no knowledge of their rate of field injuries but I suspect they are probably similar.

So I am putting forward the suggestion that perhaps it is NOT group turnout that is the cause of field injuries, but lack of sufficient land that is the issue. As more and more people now own horses and land becomes more scarce I am guessing the problem will only intensify. Unless of course the bottom drops out of the horse market, recession sets in and many have to sell or have their horses PTS, breeding is pulled back as no longer so profitable. Anything with a viable womb seems to be bred this past 3 or 4 years, another one of my grievances.

If there were enough land at your livery yards, so your horse could be turned out on huge acreage in a mixed herd would those of you who use individual paddocks at the moment, consider changing how you keep your horse and allow it group turnout?

 

[ycbm]

There is some truth in what you write about area. Mrs J but group turnout injuries are also caused by change of herd membership (and even change of membership of other fields), owners wanting horses taken in and out at different times, horses all anticipating being brought in at a certain time and crowding gateways. and the aggressive nature of individual herd members.

I've had an excess of grass on ten acres and only two or three horses on it, but I've owned 3 aggressive horses over 30 years which damaged their field mates.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I've had an excess of grass on ten acres and only two or three horses on it, but I've owned 3 aggressive horses over 30 years which damaged their field mates.

I accept that, and your rate of aggressive horse ownership is quite high and very unlucky compared to mine. I have only ever had one truly aggressive horse, many years ago I bought an ID mare, I had her on 4 weeks approval. Even allowing for settling in etc. she was one evil bl***y horse. I have had a few grumpy individuals of course, but nothing that would deliberately cause severe injury to others. Usually with enough space and time and a few grumpy ears back faces and bucking and farting lashing out all settles as each horse finds its place in the pecking order.

Never had one like the ID mare though before or since, naively I had not twigged when I went to see her why she was being kept in a separate paddock from other horses. I am guessing there was probably something going on mentally or physically but I returned her during the 3rd week without any protest from the seller, they knew for sure. I was not sinking money or time into an unknown horse at the risk of my other horses, and I would not have been happy with her being kept alone just for me to have another riding horse. But that was my particular choice and obviously we are all different and make our decisions based on what we are happy with.

 

[paddy555]

There is some truth in what you write about area. Mrs J but group turnout injuries are also caused by change of herd membership (and even change of membership of other fields), owners wanting horses taken in and out at different times, horses all anticipating being brought in at a certain time and crowding gateways. and the aggressive nature of individual herd members.

I've had an excess of grass on ten acres and only two or three horses on it, but I've owned 3 aggressive horses over 30 years which damaged their field mates.

I agree with this rather than area. They are not a herd but a group of horses humans have chosen to put together.

To improve the situation and allow T/O with company (either a pair or a group) you have to be in the position of selecting the right horses and controlling their environment.

 

[ycbm]

I accept that, and your rate of aggressive horse ownership is quite high and very unlucky compared to mine.

Do you think so? 3 out of about 45 in 31 years who were defensive of their own space, who kicked to get others to move out of their space rather than move away themselves? I don't think that's high.
.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Do you think so? 3 out of about 45 in 31 years who were defensive of their own space, who kicked to get others to move out of their space rather than move away themselves? I don't think that's high.
.

For a horse that I would truly call aggressive that I would never trust it near another horse, then yes I do think that is rather bad luck. But perhaps what we both class as that aggressive might differ - probably.

Edited to add or it could mean I have just been very lucky, who can say?

 

[ycbm]

For a horse that I would truly call aggressive that I would never trust it near another horse, then yes I do think that is rather bad luck. But perhaps what we both class as that aggressive might differ - probably.

Edited to add or it could mean I have just been very lucky, who can say?

It may have been a poor choice of word. Defensive of their own space would be a more appropriate description maybe. None of them would have moved towards another horse to attack it.
.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

It may have been a poor choice of word. Defensive of their own space would be a more appropriate description maybe. None of them would have moved towards another horse to attack it.
.

Oh in that case now we are on the same page, yep had a few of those!

 

[Upthecreek]

I agree that acreage can definitely be a factor, but for me the main issue on many livery yards is the lack of care and time taken with introductions and that I as a livery have no control over them. Also that each time a horse is added or removed it is unsettling and disruptive. It’s very difficult to guess how particular horses might react to each other, but you are told by the Yard Manager when a new horse is added “they have to sort out their pecking order” and you just have to hope and pray that they do that without anyone getting seriously hurt.

Most of the field injuries I’ve known have resulted from play and horses generally being idiots rather than horses deliberately trying to hurt each other. One of mine had a rug trashed when the other horse must have reared and got his foot caught in the front of his rug. It is a wonder he didn’t break his leg and a good job my horse didn’t gallop off because foot was still caught in rug in the morning and rug had to be cut off to release foot.

Field injuries were pretty common at my last yard. Of course for the majority nobody sees it happen so it’s impossible to know the exact circumstances. They did have large fields with decent year round grazing, so I don’t think the issue there would have been lack of space.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Do you think so? 3 out of about 45 in 31 years who were defensive of their own space, who kicked to get others to move out of their space rather than move away themselves? I don't think that's high.

I agree that acreage can definitely be a factor, but for me the main issue on many livery yards is the lack of care and time taken with introductions and that I as a livery have no control over them. Also that each time a horse is added or removed it is unsettling and disruptive. It’s very difficult to guess how particular horses might react to each other, but you are told by the Yard Manager when a new horse is added “they have to sort out their pecking order” and you just have to hope and pray that they do that without anyone getting seriously hurt.

Most of the field injuries I’ve known have resulted from play and horses generally being idiots rather than horses deliberately trying to hurt each other. One of mine had a rug trashed when the other horse must have reared and got his foot caught in the front of his rug. It is a wonder he didn’t break his leg and a good job my horse didn’t gallop off because foot was still caught in rug in the morning and rug had to be cut off to release foot.

Field injuries were pretty common at my last yard. Of course for the majority nobody sees it happen so it’s impossible to know the exact circumstances. They did have large fields with decent year round grazing, so I don’t think the issue there would have been lack of space.

I simply don't understand why the liveries don't stand firm together and insist on careful introductions. After all, they are paying for this service.
Ours do live at home now but prior to that they were at livery and had been for 10 yrs. When he knew that we would be leaving YO turned very awkward over summer grazing, so we sent the horses to a friend's farm over the summer until we got completed on the property. Yes, it was inconvenient, not on anyone's way to work etc but we weren't prepared to pay for a service that we weren't getting

 

[Upthecreek]

I simply don't understand why the liveries don't stand firm together and insist on careful introductions. After all, they are paying for this service.

I’m afraid it’s not that kind of place! It’s a big yard with 60-70 horses and the Yard Manager has been there for 25 years and is verging on being dictatorial. They always have a waiting list so the attitude is like it, lump it or leave.

Other liveries would not make a stand, I tried that. Even the livery whose horse was kicked to death has another horse there now.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: I don't even know why I post here

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I should caveat that I have always introduced very carefully, and run new horses in a small area alongside the main field where they can reach each other over the fence for a good week before allowing them in with the main herd. It has never been a problem. Sometimes the odd grumpy one might throw a few shapes but it doesn't last long in my experience.

I think my worst experience with introducing a new one was a little rescue donkey. All seemed fine in the few days leading up to full introduction but when I put him in with the others my oldest donkey took an immediate dislike to him for some unknown reason and chased the poor little chap around the field for hours, honking and braying. Just when I was thinking I must remove the little rescue before dark for his own safety it all suddenly settled down and that was the end of it. Very odd carry on. I still have them both now over 15 years later for the little one and well over 20 years for the big fellah. They aren't joined at the hip though.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s not just aggressive behaviour that causes injuries playing is dangerous and I have quite a few nasties caused by that .
I have had one aggressive horse and he been alone before he came to us as the only horse on the place he was awful he caused several serious injuries having gone through hedges and jumped gates to attack others .
I was at my wits end when a dealer friend said give him regumate which my vet was happy with because we where in a tight spot it cured the issue .
I kept him on the regulate all that summer through the winter and summer and then stopped it the next winter after that he was ok .
He was not pleasant horse though dominant and not respectful you needed to be really concentrating on him he’s the only horse I have not been at all upset to lose .
My horses have plenty of space but we still have had field injuries .
The thing we did that that settled them the most was having electricity round every fence it reduces them being silly .

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

There is some truth in what you write about area. Mrs J but group turnout injuries are also caused by change of herd membership (and even change of membership of other fields), owners wanting horses taken in and out at different times, horses all anticipating being brought in at a certain time and crowding gateways. and the aggressive nature of individual herd members.

I've had an excess of grass on ten acres and only two or three horses on it, but I've owned 3 aggressive horses over 30 years which damaged their field mates.

Actually the aggression and danger around the gateway at bringing in time was one of the worst things about group turn out. I’d almost forgotten that. I nearly got trampled one day bringing my horse in. I used to get really anxious to get to the yard to bring in before it all kicked off. I don’t miss that one bit .

One time my friend couldn’t get her mare in because of another aggressive mare that guarded the gate. If you tried to chase her away she actually went for you. It took several incidents and multiple owners complaining before anything was done.

 

[SO1]

Homey was late gelded and a forest run stallion for 2 years and never had any problems with him socialising.

Bert now 5 was gelded April 2022 and seems fine with others so far.

Both being NF though who are known for their gentle natures.

My Arabi was cut at 4 and was turned out alone from the age of 2, the stud had him with another colt but they started fighting so they were separated, he has been turned out with various geldings and mares over the years and been fine.

But he also has a tendency to take a dislike to some horses and then he will chase and bite and he doesn't stop, so I'm careful who his put with and his lived happily with Louis for nearly 10 years.

So maybe it is the late gelding that can cause a problem maybe some stallion traits just will always remain and can make them tricky with horses, but I totally agree with you in respect of why persevere at the risk of another horse or him getting hurt it's not worth it.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Homey was late gelded and a forest run stallion for 2 years and never had any problems with him socialising.

Bert now 5 was gelded April 2022 and seems fine with others so far.

Both being NF though who are known for their gentle natures.

Maybe it's just like most things with horses it affects some and not others, Arab stallions are not known for being that difficult Arabi wasn't really a problem he just didn't like other horses in his space so perhaps that's just him.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Actually the aggression and danger around the gateway at bringing in time was one of the worst things about group turn out. I’d almost forgotten that. I nearly got trampled one day bringing my horse in. I used to get really anxious to get to the yard to bring in before it all kicked off. I don’t miss that one bit .

One time my friend couldn’t get her mare in because of another aggressive mare that guarded the gate. If you tried to chase her away she actually went for you. It took several incidents and multiple owners complaining before anything was done.

I actually think getting horses in with multiple horses at the gate is probably one of the most dangerous things we do with horses, I think your more likely to get hurt doing that than most other things we do with horses.

I know alot of people on yards that won't bring on other people's for that very reason.