Inflating Body Protectors

kerilli said:
smiggy, did you crack your ribs before buying your airjacket?

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sorry, badly explained, yes cracked ribs wearing nothing in the way of protective gear !

This debate reminds me a bit of when I took my old lorry for plating. The passenger seatbelts were slightly coroded on the fixings, and thus to pass the plating the seatbelts were removed, it being fine to have NO seatbelts but not fine to have seatbelts with an infintisimal risk of failing :confused:

will copntinue to wear my airjacket without a BP and feel a tad safer!
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kerilli said:
Actually, she said it could, which is slightly different.
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And I made that slight inaccuracy when I was pointing out that the others were saying that it definitely WON'T which is competely wrong. If it could, and does, as it is likely to in my experience, then it WILL prevent neck injuries. No body protector can make any such claims of neck protection at all.
 
cptrayes said:
And I made that slight inaccuracy when I was pointing out that the others were saying that it definitely WON'T which is competely wrong. If it could, and does, as it is likely to in my experience, then it WILL prevent neck injuries. No body protector can make any such claims of neck protection at all.
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It might, in certain cases. I don't think that without thorough testing one can say it "WILL". Riders have broken their necks wearing them. There was a long article about them in Eventing magazine months ago, and Pepo Puch (who broke his neck while wearing an airjacket, out hacking) said, iirc, that his surgeon agreed that the break happened just above where the airjacket finished.
You believe in and trust your airjacket, great. But please don't make blanket statements of 'fact' when, without rigorous testing with dummies etc etc, that does not exist.
the COTH thread is well worth a read, btw. far smarter people than me, with detailed knowledge of safety testing etc, are calling for the airjackets to be tested.
 
From the point of view of someone who earlier this year lay in hospital after a fall and was told they had broken their neck, let me tell you it isn't fun! I came off my horse and hit the arena fence pretty hard in the way that would typically cause a hangmans fracture (this is what I was told in A&E I'd done). I was wearing a body protector (KanTeq) and thank god I was, however I honestly do not believe that wearing any type of inflatable collar would have prevented me from breaking my neck.
After my fall I did a lot of research into neck protection for riding and eventing as the thought of what would have happened if I had broken my neck scared the hell out of me. I'm 18 years old, I love going out with my friends, eventing etc etc, you get the picture. The thought of not being able to do this was so, so frightening. I went from being a very gutsy rider who wasn't bothered by anything, get on anything etc to not being able to get on my own horse because I was so scared. It tool me a good 4 or 5 months to get back to my normal self, I'm now working on a professional event yard and riding a variety of horses from 4* to just backed 3/4 yos every day.
I can absolutely PROMISE you that if I thought there was something out there that would PREVENT me breaking my neck in a fall, and with mother and stepfather as intensive care professionals and a father with an engingeering/motorsport background (The_Financier is my dad), god knows we would have found it and purchased it!
Although I believe the airjacket does have its pros I think the potential cons outweigh it.
 
CaleruxShearer said:
Although I believe the airjacket does have its pros I think the potential cons outweigh it.
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As someone who has previously broken her neck, can you tell me what the cons of an air jacket are that prevents you from wearing one when there is even half a chance that it would help you not to break your neck again? I am genuinely interested, I do not want a fight, just to understand your reasoning to see what I have missed. I have no desire to put myself at risk if I have missed something crucial but I am baffled why you do not think having a thick tight ring of airbag around your neck would not have helped prevent neck injury in the fall you had.

Kerilli you write again as if I must think that there is some magic device that could prevent ALL neck injuries. So it's possible to break your neck above the collar? Well of course it is. That doesn't mean that it can't help you not break your neck below it, and how much protection it will offer will depend on how long and how thick your neck is, too. Not wearing an air jacket provides no neck protection at all. I am not waiting for someone to test it to tell me that it will help me not to break my neck, when it's patently clear to me from wearing it that it will. I'll stop when someone produces the evidence that it is easier to break your neck with it on than without it on, but until then, common sense tells me that it is safer to ride in it than not, and so does the Engineer who made me buy it.
 
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No, I am just responding to your statement that "it WILL prevent neck injuries" - that is a very confident blanket statement, considering that some of those who have broken their necks and backs wearing airjackets have sustained those fractures below the collar...

cptrayes said:
I am not waiting for someone to test it to tell me that it will help me not to break my neck, when it's patently clear to me from wearing it that it will. I'll stop when someone produces the evidence that it is easier to break your neck with it on than without it on, but until then, common sense tells me that it is safer to ride in it than not, and so does the Engineer who made me buy it.
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Fair enough, if you are happy to trust to your 'common sense' and to the advice you've been given.
 
If you can point me to the evidence that will tell me that I am more likely to be hurt with it on than without it on I will gladly read it.

But "common sense" tells me that almost all the world's top eventers are wearing them because they believe they are safer in them, and since they are having crashing falls as an almost routine part of their jobs, I think I will stick with it until the evidence is produced that it is safer not to wear one.
 
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Sorry, I didn't make myself terribly clear, I am absolutely knackered and typing this on my blackberry sorry!
I didn't actually break my neck - I was told for about 4 hours I had, turned out the radiographers couldn't actually read x rays....
I came out of hospital with severe concussion and bruising on my brain, and some whiplash and some pretty impressive bruising and scrapes on my hip (I have pictures if anyone wants them!!)
The reason I do not think an airbag would have protected me is this - I hit the edge of the fence rail (like a knife edge if that makes sense?) With the very top of my neck, the first vetebrae after my skull, this would not have been protected by an airbag. Had my neck taken the impact lower down I'm still not convinced an airbag would have made any difference, partially because I don't think a jacket would have inflated in the fall (for full description of the fall see my previous thread on it). I also believe that if you land on the top of your head, which I have done on many occasions in the school going over my horses head when I've seen some utter missers and the horse has stopped, you could quite conceivably fracture your neck BEFORE the airbag inflates. The force of the airbag inflating could then destabilise a fracture with potentially horrific consequences.
My boss was competing in the 4* at Pau last weekend and fell off xc landing pretty much on the top of her head. The only injury she suffered was being winded from the force of the P2 inflating.
 
i have to be very careful what i say, since i have the threat of a permanent ban from HHO hanging over me if i comment adversely about them, but there have been oodles of threads about this in the past, both on here and on COTH, where for instance RAyers has a lot of interesting and VERY well-informed things to say about them. his credentials are very impressive.
the lack of evidence is precisely the point. full testing should have been done first, as it has to be with a regular bp. then we wouldn't be wondering and guessing and supposing and arguing... ;) ;)
yes, a lot of top eventers wear them. a lot don't too. they all have a vested interest in NOT getting hurt, and they don't all wear them.
and both Point Two and BE say that they must be worn over a certified bp...
 
This seems to be a debate that will run and run.

CPT, the reason people are jumping on your posts is because of your blanket assertions, that air vests WILL prevent neck injuries. It would be much more accurate to say that vest could or might help prevent neck injuries, but as there is no firm evidence either way, it is all down to belief and conjecture, which is where the problem lies.

As I understand it, the hangmans break is usually caused by a 'face plant' type accident, where the head is forced back under the weight of the body. As a mountain biker I can attest to the fact that very few face plants are straight on, as the natural reaction is to put the hands out and turn the face away, this will increase the chances of both a forced and rotational injury. As a martial artist I can absolutely state that when I wish to break an opponents neck, I twist their head, as trying to force the head back against the neck muscles is too difficult and time consuming. So in some cases an air jacket could help prevent the head being forced back, but if a rotational element is introduced into the face plant, then the air jacket is likely to be of little benefit, and the break will occur slightly higher in the neck.

That said, if a person feels safer and better protected and is therefore a more relaxed and confident rider wearing an air jacket, then it is doing it's job.

With regards to professional riders; some may wear air jackets for the added safety, but the added sponsorship money will probably be of more benefit.

Finally, the reason I post against air vests is because a lot of people get a false sense of security. Cars are as safe as they have ever been, but over 2500 people die in car accidents every year. No amount of safety gear will keep you completely safe and placing too much trust in safety equipment is dangerous.
 
NeilM said:
CPT, the reason people are jumping on your posts is because of your blanket assertions, that air vests WILL prevent neck injuries. It would be much more accurate to say that vest could or might help prevent neck injuries, but as there is no firm evidence either way, it is all down to belief and conjecture, which is where the problem lies.

Finally, the reason I post against air vests is because a lot of people get a false sense of security. Cars are as safe as they have ever been, but over 2500 people die in car accidents every year. No amount of safety gear will keep you completely safe and placing too much trust in safety equipment is dangerous.
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I couldn't have put it better myself. It's the blanket assertions that scare me. So many people seem to believe the clever marketing and think they won't break their neck in an air jacket, or even that they will be saved from serious injury or a fatality in a full rotational, but that simply isn't the case.
 
Saratoga said:
I couldn't have put it better myself. It's the blanket assertions that scare me. So many people seem to believe the clever marketing and think they won't break their neck in an air jacket, or even that they will be saved from serious injury or a fatality in a full rotational, but that simply isn't the case.
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Poor JR was wearing BP and P2, and it didn't help her. :(
 
Lots of good points from NeilM there, but can I just say that this

NeilM said:
As a martial artist I can absolutely state that when I wish to break an opponents neck, I twist their head, as trying to force the head back against the neck muscles is too difficult and time consuming.
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is imho the best post EVAH on HHO.
Next time you come here to teach us falling, please show me how to break someone's neck quickly and easily, just in case it ever comes in handy... ;) ;) ;)
oh, and what's your hourly rate as a hit-man? ;) ;) ;)

seriously though, NO bp would ever claim any kind of neck protection, the safety standard does not examine or qualify for that area at all.
the HANS is the only proven device, and of course in that situation you have the absolute rigidity of the rear of the seat-capsule to brace it against, not possible for a rider (although 1 American eventer did ride in a HANS type of neck-stabilising device, I was told, not sure if she still does.)
I'll wait to be corrected, but this is what I have been given to understand: to semi-protect the neck is actually potentially more dangerous, as it is actually FORWARD neck thrust that is deadly, and the HANS protects against this. the cervical spine area is already the most flexible part of the spine, therefore the most vulnerable to hyperflexion.
It all comes down to Newton's third law of motion. Physics will get you, every time... ;) ;)
 
kerilli said:
Next time you come here to teach us falling, please show me how to break someone's neck quickly and easily, just in case it ever comes in handy... ;) ;) ;)
oh, and what's your hourly rate as a hit-man? ;) ;) ;)
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Yup, can teach you neck breaking techniques, it is alarmingly easy to do :eek:

My hit man days are over, I'm officially retired :cool:
 
Glad I was too slow to turn my neck when I face planted a few months ago! Quite alarming reading.
Neil you doing anymore falling off clinics?
 
NeilM said:
This seems to be a debate that will run and run.

CPT, the reason people are jumping on your posts is because of your blanket assertions, that air vests WILL prevent neck injuries. It would be much more accurate to say that vest could or might help prevent neck injuries, but as there is no firm evidence either way, it is all down to belief and conjecture, which is where the problem lies.
.
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Yes I apologise for that, it was an instinctive reaction to the fervency of the people who seem to hate air jackets. I should have said "I think that..." Sorry.

Can I just ask if the people who are saying that they cannot possibly help you avoid breaking your neck have actually been blown up in one? Having tried one out in cold blood I am personally certain that in the event of a very common fall where the horse throws the rider into a fence, and the rider rotates and hits a pole or rail backwards on the back of the neck, I am, personally completely and absolutely certain that it would help prevent serious injury to the neck.
 
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CaleruxShearer said:
, you could quite conceivably fracture your neck BEFORE the airbag inflates. The force of the airbag inflating could then destabilise a fracture with potentially horrific consequences.
.
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I personally think that the likelihood of this happening is so small as to be inconceivable. But we're all different, thank goodness or the world would be a boring place. :) Thanks for the explanation.
 
cptrayes said:
Yes I apologise for that, it was an instinctive reaction to the fervency of the people who seem to hate air jackets. I should have said "I think that..." Sorry.
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I don't particularly hate AJs per se.
What I do hate is the aggressive, often contradictory marketing techniques, employed by some manufacturers. :(
"I think that" these techniques prey on peoples' utter desperation (understandable) to keep their loved-ones safe, at whatever cost, even when it is an unproven quantity, in so many ways - not just the ability to protect, but also the possible harm it can do.
 
cptrayes said:
Yes I apologise for that, it was an instinctive reaction to the fervency of the people who seem to hate air jackets. I should have said "I think that..." Sorry.

Can I just ask if the people who are saying that they cannot possibly help you avoid breaking your neck have actually been blown up in one? Having tried one out in cold blood I am personally certain that in the event of a very common fall where the horse throws the rider into a fence, and the rider rotates and hits a pole or rail backwards on the back of the neck, I am, personally completely and absolutely certain that it would help prevent serious injury to the neck.
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I have been blown up in one, and I have also had a nasty fall where I was thrown into a post and rail fence at speed backwards, and hit the back of my head/neck on a post. Landed on the ground and wasn't able to move for quite a while. Luckily just system shock I think and ended up with just a broken leg where I landed. In this case my head was thrown forwards into my chest, not backwards, so I don't believe an air jacket would have had any positive affect at all in that scenario. I don't even know if it would have gone off in time as I was still very close to the horse when I hit. It wouldn't have helped the neck injury, and it certainly wouldn't have stopped me breaking my leg obviously.

I would also say from my point of view I don't hate air jackets at all. But I do hate that so many people seem to have so much faith in these jackets when I don't think they do half the things people seem to think they do. There just doesn't seem to be the hard facts behind the product, just assumptions. It really does feel like they are being tested on the public, which is wrong.
 
cptrayes said:
Can I just ask if the people who are saying that they cannot possibly help you avoid breaking your neck have actually been blown up in one?
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At one time P2 were talking about an open day, somewhere like Stonleigh. As a sceptic, I offered to attend as a crash test dummy, but the event never happened.

HBII: I am available for Christmas / birthday parties, pantomime or private functions:D I am like the Martini advert, any time, any place, anywhere (although, surely the last two phrases mean the same thing....whatever).

PM me if you want to arrange a training session. Advert over :p

EDIT: Just read my own post. This would be a breakfall and rolling session, not an assassins masterclass :D
 
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Saratoga said:
I would also say from my point of view I don't hate air jackets at all. But I do hate that so many people seem to have so much faith in these jackets when I don't think they do half the things people seem to think they do. There just doesn't seem to be the hard facts behind the product, just assumptions. It really does feel like they are being tested on the public, which is wrong.
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ditto this, absolutely.
i don't hate them either. i'm in favour of absolutely ANYTHING that makes our dangerous but wonderful sport safer. what i really can't stand is the ongoing misinformation (deliberate or otherwise), the behind-scenes shenanigans, and the fervent belief in the 'magic carpet' which i think could be even more endangering... anecdotal evidence is NOT proof.
a friend of mine had a full rotational and got rather squashed wearing a Racesafe this season. she was a bit sore but otherwise uninjured. this does NOT mean that the Racesafe 'saved her life' (although i'm sure it did its job, all credit), it means she was very lucky in that the way she fell, and the softness of the ground, and the way the horse fell, all contributed to a good outcome. if she'd been wearing an airjacket you can guarantee that people would have been saying it saved her life...
 
The debate has been done to death on here again and again and again... without really making much progress from either camp!

fwiw, I used to be adamantly against air jackets for all of the reasons above.

Long story short, I got very broken falling off and had 4 months off work last year and decided to buy myself a P2.

Having fallen off a few times in it, I am very happy with the protection it provides IN ADDITION to my normal BP and I think any possibility of it causing an injury are so minimal it is well worth the risk compared to what protection I BELIEVE it offers.
 
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