Information on Alpha mares

[sporthorsefrance]

I'm researching the behaviour and descendancy of Alpha mares - to hopefully produce a book that will help owners, breeders and riders understand the difficulties one encounters when dealing with a true Alpha mare. I have bred 3 generations of them & I am still learning! I am not interested in the person who just thinks they have an Alpha mare, unless they have sound reasons why, but I am interested in someone who had the dam with the same temperament & Alpha signs & passed them on to the first female foal . Please email me if you have useful input. kslsporthorses@orange.fr

 

[planete]

Could you please define what, for you, a "true Alpha mare" is? For me, a 'leader' mare is sane and sensible but does not suffer fools gladly, so needs sensitive and highly educated management and handlers to give her best. End of problems.

Anybody for popcorn?

 

[maccachic]

Id agree with that definition planete - my current mare is alpha and she is the first out of 7 I've owned previously that has been.

Unsure on her foals tendency's and wasn't aware it was a generational thing.

 

[JillA]

I had an alpha mare who controlled all the other horses in her herd with just a flick of an ear, and would take them all on a hike around the track, no arguments. She was easy enough to handle but was never broken to ride because of really badly turned feet. She bred 5 foals, only one of which had pigeon toes, like hers but not as bad. I sold 3 at weaning so can't comment on their characters, but the two I kept to maturity one I broke and kept, and he is a very opinionated gelding, and the other filly I had to have professionally done and then sold. She has ideas of her own, but then she is a mare!! I think her subsequent owner would describe her as slightly challenging but bold. You certainly have to be tactful with both of them.

 

[Equi]

The only issue i have with my alpha mare is that she decides when the herd is being caught or not. Bloody annoying.

 

[Irish gal]

As the others have said you're talking about the herd leader, that's what the Alpha mare is as opposed to just a stroppy mare who might bully others but is not in charge. Mares hugely influence their offspring which is why embryo transfer has run into problems when heavy horses are used as recipients for say polo ponies. It was seen that the offspring turned out to be too slow and pretty useless and it was down to being nurtured by such a placid animal. If the gypsy mare heard a startling sound she would ignore it and keep eating where a blood mare would have torn across the field with the foal following.

It's well known that the mare passes a lot of traits to the foal, just like in humans who copy their mother and act like her. So with foals, to the extent that orphans can be extremely difficult to rear into a well mannered animal as they are missing their mother's discipline.

I have heard experienced breeders say they would prefer foals from Alpha mares as their confidence will be passed on to the foal; contrast that with a foal from a mare who is at the bottom of the herd pecking order and bullied so growing up in a less secure way.

I had a mare who was leader of a herd of 20 horses, who had liberty on an 80 acre farm with the gates open so living in a real natural herd environment. A TB, I often saw her to go from grazing quietly to turning on a six pence and taking off at a gallop across the farm with the whole gang behind her. She was undisputed leader but never bullied any horse and was just quietly dignified. She showed her disgust by wrinkling one nostril slightly and would only pin her ears if really pushed. She was very good to do anything with and wouldn't try dominate a person, but she had no need whatsoever for affection, human praise etc. An Alpha mare, there were no problems at all dealing with her, perhaps you just have a difficult mare? In the same herd another mare completely tried to dominate all the horses except the lead mare - she also tried to dominate people, yet she was not herd leader, the quiet, dignified TB was.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

As the others have said you're talking about the herd leader, that's what the Alpha mare is as opposed to just a stroppy mare who might bully others but is not in charge. Mares hugely influence their offspring which is why embryo transfer has run into problems when heavy horses are used as recipients for say polo ponies. It was seen that the offspring turned out to be too slow and pretty useless and it was down to being nurtured by such a placid animal. If the gypsy mare heard a startling sound she would ignore it and keep eating where a blood mare would have torn across the field with the foal following.

It's well known that the mare passes a lot of traits to the foal, just like in humans who copy their mother and act like her. So with foals, to the extent that orphans can be extremely difficult to rear into a well mannered animal as they are missing their mother's discipline.

I have heard experienced breeders say they would prefer foals from Alpha mares as their confidence will be passed on to the foal; contrast that with a foal from a mare who is at the bottom of the herd pecking order and bullied so growing up in a less secure way.

I had a mare who was leader of a herd of 20 horses, who had liberty on an 80 acre farm with the gates open so living in a real natural herd environment. A TB, I often saw her to go from grazing quietly to turning on a six pence and taking off at a gallop across the farm with the whole gang behind her. She was undisputed leader but never bullied any horse and was just quietly dignified. She showed her disgust by wrinkling one nostril slightly and would only pin her ears if really pushed. She was very good to do anything with and wouldn't try dominate a person, but she had no need whatsoever for affection, human praise etc. An Alpha mare, there were no problems at all dealing with her, perhaps you just have a difficult mare? In the same herd another mare completely tried to dominate all the horses except the lead mare - she also tried to dominate people, yet she was not herd leader, the quiet, dignified TB was.

No, I don't just have a difficult mare. I've been a professional breeder of sport horses for over 20 years with some success. Eventing to international 2* & 3* level & dressage to national. All here in France with british bred horses. There is a difference between a lead mare & an Alpha mare. Every group of horses has a lead mare but only a true Alpha will show certain traits - for example, in a field full of mares & foals she will take all the foals & herd them. Ellen Parker, a very well respected authority on TB racehorses, has done a ton of research into Alpha mares, or Queens of the Turf as she calls them & has identified definite 'family' lines. I would like to extend that research into other breeds. It's amazing when you look back at the pedigrees of very successful horses who have a lot TB in their ancestry, just how many of Ellen's Queens there are. I have an exceptional 6 yr old event mare who will go 1* next year & is expected to then move up the levels very quickly. She is the daughter & grand daughter of Alpha mares & has 19 TB Queens in her pedigree. I find that fascinating.
I saw my 15 yr old Alpha mare, who had always been in charge, actually doing the foal submission mouthing to her own 3 yr old daughter. The daughter took over from that day. So I'm interested to hear from other breeders who may have had similar experiences.

 

[Barnacle]

OP do you have any academic affiliations? Have you published any peer-reviewed papers?

 

[sporthorsefrance]

I had an alpha mare who controlled all the other horses in her herd with just a flick of an ear, and would take them all on a hike around the track, no arguments. She was easy enough to handle but was never broken to ride because of really badly turned feet. She bred 5 foals, only one of which had pigeon toes, like hers but not as bad. I sold 3 at weaning so can't comment on their characters, but the two I kept to maturity one I broke and kept, and he is a very opinionated gelding, and the other filly I had to have professionally done and then sold. She has ideas of her own, but then she is a mare!! I think her subsequent owner would describe her as slightly challenging but bold. You certainly have to be tactful with both of them.

Can you give me a bit more info please?
How old was your mare when she had her first foal, and how old when she had the 'bold' filly? Of the 5 foals, which were male & which female?
Would you say that she bred a better class of foal than you expected?
The gelding you kept, was he the first male?
What breeding was the mare?

Many thanks.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

OP do you have any academic affiliations? Have you published any peer-reviewed papers?

Millions.

 

[fburton]

It's just that "alpha mare" doesn't have a definition that everyone can agree on - witness the responses on this thread. The closest thing to a definition that's 'generally accepted' in the scientific literature is that the alpha mare is the most dominant individual, where dominance is 'resource holding potential'. But even then it isn't totally clear cut because dominance may manifest differently depending on what is being competed for. (For example see http://www.ebta.co.uk/faq-dominance.html.)

Assuming we are talking about dominance, there are a couple of generalizations that often (but not always) apply. In more natural family groups where mares raise foals and the female offspring stay with their dams, it is the older mares that are dominant over the youngsters because they always have been. That may also explain why older mares are leaders (in the sense that others tend to follow them), in addition to the fact that they have more experience of life and its dangers. The other is that offspring of dominant mares tend to be dominant within their own age group, and we can speculate how much of this is due to nature vs. nurture.

ETA: I am aware of the recent Czech paper that reports results suggesting that dominance isn't passed on to foals.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

I would have to disagree with the Czech paper and 'dominant within their own age group'. I have 3 generations of proof at home. Suggest you read about Ellen Parker's theories on Queens of the turf or Reines du Course. It's interesting reading. I'm disappointed with the response to this thread, I'm a breeder & I firmly believe the way forward is to chart the mare, not so much the stallion and the Alpha mare is the way to go. The trouble with breeding is that by the time you are beginning to understand what goes on you are too old to see what happens next. I don't like the word 'dominance', that's not really what it's about - it's survival of the herd. A clever, agile & ultimately courageous mare to lead the herd to food, water & safety. Voilà.

 

[ihatework]

I presume you deal with sports horses.
Genuine and possibly daft question but how do you know a sports mare is or isn't alpha? Usually sports horses aren't managed in family groups, the artificial environment they are bought up in would surely mean a lot of the natural traits aren't witnessed?
I have a mare I would be very interested to observe in a more natural situation, she certainly shows some leader traits (but I do know little about this admittedly)

 

[maccachic]

3 Generations doesn't make proof? You would need a hell of a lot more to prove these aren't just outliers. Its going to be a hard asking consider most sport horse are well looked after so there is no need to fight for resources and very few are kept anywhere close to a natural herd situation.

TBs are artificially breed ie no natural selection going on there. Your best bed would be to document feral herds possibly.

Will have a look at Queens of the Turf but if a winning racehorse defines an alpha then its just a straw man argument.

 

[Irish gal]

What you're saying is interesting Sportshorsefrance, it's just normal heritability by the sounds of it and reinforced through nurture. I reckon whatever applies to one branch, say racing, generally applies to others like jumping. For example the most successful racing stallion in Ireland is Gallileo, he won the usual flat classics before going to stud and is proving a great sire. His trainer was interviewed and said the greatest trait the horse passes on is his mental toughness which is why he is so popular. So it's a psychological trait he appears to be most prized for.

Similarly a jumper needs the right attributes to succeed and they can also be more tempermental like being a show off and enjoying performing for a crowd or being competitive. I've known talented jumpers that were sensitive and didn't like being the focus of attention in the ring, could jump the moon at home but were put off their game in a show environment.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

3 Generations doesn't make proof? You would need a hell of a lot more to prove these aren't just outliers. Its going to be a hard asking consider most sport horse are well looked after so there is no need to fight for resources and very few are kept anywhere close to a natural herd situation.

TBs are artificially breed ie no natural selection going on there. Your best bed would be to document feral herds possibly.

Will have a look at Queens of the Turf but if a winning racehorse defines an alpha then its just a straw man argument.

My broodmares & youngstock are all at home living in a herd situation on over 30 acres. The competition horses are of course in training but lived with the herd for the first 3 years of their lives. I have 2 unrelated families, one submissive, one not. When the competition horses come home for a break, those belonging to the dominant family are immediately recognised & accepted, the others are not. It has taken 25 years of observing them & living with them to make me think that there is more to Alpha mares than we understand & if, as I believe, the trait is hereditary, that they could be used in conjunction with stallion performance to produce top class competition horses. Just a thought.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Yes I agree

 

[Doormouse]

My bogof is an alpha mare as was her mother. Both very calm laid back mares who control all the other horses they are with. Mother now sold, daughter is a 4 year old. She never fights or bullies but the rest of the yard all do exactly as she does and will scream for her but not each other. She never calls for anyone! Gentle and easy to do things with but not interested in humans especially unless they have food. Will put up with being kissed etc but has no interest in it.

Her mother was exactly the same and with both of them they are wiser than their years so to speak.

4 year old just started Autumn hunting and the only thing she is worried about is the horses being in different places. Provided everyone is together she is calm and peaceful but it drives her mad when some horses go one way and some the other. I think because she is an alpha mare she believes they should all stay with her as a herd!

 

[sporthorsefrance]

My bogof is an alpha mare as was her mother. Both very calm laid back mares who control all the other horses they are with. Mother now sold, daughter is a 4 year old. She never fights or bullies but the rest of the yard all do exactly as she does and will scream for her but not each other. She never calls for anyone! Gentle and easy to do things with but not interested in humans especially unless they have food. Will put up with being kissed etc but has no interest in it.

Her mother was exactly the same and with both of them they are wiser than their years so to speak.

4 year old just started Autumn hunting and the only thing she is worried about is the horses being in different places. Provided everyone is together she is calm and peaceful but it drives her mad when some horses go one way and some the other. I think because she is an alpha mare she believes they should all stay with her as a herd!

Oh yes, that's exactly what I am talking about. Most certainly you have an Alpha family. Is the 4 yr old the first female the mother bred? My experience is that a second filly foal is NOT Alpha but I could be wrong. The lack of interest in humans seems to be a common trait! What is their breeding?

 

[Doormouse]

The 4 year old is a first foal. Her mother was 4 when I bought her and then discovered she was in foal! Dam was by VDL Douglas out of Drumagoland who was by Zero Watt. Foal (now 4) was supposedly by a young jumping bred colt who was running with a couple of mares to continue his line but I suspect she is much more likely to be by a pony!

 

[Irish gal]

That's really interesting about them having no interest in humans, that's exactly like my TB mare, who led a herd of 25, she had zero interest in us. I used to say that if she was a person I would get her a T shirt that read - Humans Are For Losers.

Her biggest sign of disapproval was to wrinkle one nostril in disgust at both horses and humans behaving in a way she disapproved of. For instance if you petted her, the disgusted look was her reaction! She rarely had to go beyond that to control the herd. Hard to have a bond with her though, she just had no interest, and although well behaved it was clear she just tolerated us.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

The 4 year old is a first foal. Her mother was 4 when I bought her and then discovered she was in foal! Dam was by VDL Douglas out of Drumagoland who was by Zero Watt. Foal (now 4) was supposedly by a young jumping bred colt who was running with a couple of mares to continue his line but I suspect she is much more likely to be by a pony!

Interesting, as Zero Watt has 12 of Ellen Parkers Queens in 6 generations, which is a lot! And was the sire of numerous international eventers.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

That's really interesting about them having no interest in humans, that's exactly like my TB mare, who led a herd of 25, she had zero interest in us. I used to say that if she was a person I would get her a T shirt that read - Humans Are For Losers.

Her biggest sign of disapproval was to wrinkle one nostril in disgust at both horses and humans behaving in a way she disapproved of. For instance if you petted her, the disgusted look was her reaction! She rarely had to go beyond that to control the herd. Hard to have a bond with her though, she just had no interest, and although well behaved it was clear she just tolerated us.

Was she a first filly foal do you know? Who is she by?

 

[Lgd]

My 7/8 TB mare is the boss and has always been quite a dominant mare with other horses, particularly if there are foals around. Even away at a stud for a spell where she was in the mare herd she often had several foals with her in addition to her own.
She is another who only needs to snake her neck or scowl at a transgressor, it is very rare to see her have to lift a hind leg or apply teeth in discipline. She was far stricter with her colt foal than she was with either of the two filly foals.
Conversely she is is very human orientated and is actually very motherly with kids (and has been since long before she had foals).
Her 9yo daughter is also quite an alpha personality and has taken over a 'second in command' in the herd. She does not challenge her mother even now! Lost the other filly at 10 weeks old so never really knew how she would have been although she was a very bold foal.
The colt is now 5yo and an entire so not in with the mares. He is a very bold personality and if you give him an inch he will take a mile. Not nasty but quite strong willed and very intelligent with it.

All three are on the more intelligent end of the spectrum, my 3yo out of the other mare (Orlov x TB/Connemara) is a bit Tim Nice but Dim (like his mother). All very trainable but the alpha mare and her offspring are far more likely to challenge you.
Sire of the foals from the 7/8TB mare is a KWPN stallion with a good chunk of TB in his lines. The more submissive one from the other mare is from KWPN/German bloodlines.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

tgd - how old is the senior mare? I'm asking because my old mare lost the herd to her daughter at 15, BUT the 3 yr old daughter was in foal, which definitely had something to do with it. We tried to put the old mare back in foal (she'd had 4 with no probs) but she never took again. However she is a fantastic granny & takes over the foals when her daughter is bored with them. The Alpha mare has just been to stud - she was with 3 other horses in a field with a stone barn for shelter. She laid claim to the barn & wouldn't let the others in.

 

[Equi]

Next year I'll be able to tell more. I've got a subdominant mare in foal to a sub dominant stallion and the foal will be weaned with the alpha mare and head gelding. It will be very interesting to see.

 

[Irish gal]

Yes she was the mare's first foal.

She's by Classic Cliche and out of Laura Croft by Mister Lord.

This is really thought provoking and could have far reaching consequences for breeding - must read that book!

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Yes she was the mare's first foal.

She's by Classic Cliche and out of Laura Croft by Mister Lord.

This is really thought provoking and could have far reaching consequences for breeding - must read that book!

She has an amazing 38 TB Queens of the Turf in 6 generations! Many horses with TB genes don't have ANY!

 

[Lgd]

tgd - how old is the senior mare?

She's 26yo now, she was my competition horse first and competed up to Inter I.
I took her out of competition to breed off her (went to stud a month after being at petplan finals at winter nationals) and had first foal at 17yo. She injured a shoulder which ended her competition career so she went back to stud and had number 2 and 3 at 21yo and 22yo. She's actually still sound and rideable, although I don't ride her as have enough to ride without adding another one back on the roster and she has more than earned a happy retirement other than the odd escort duty for vet visits and competitions.
Her dam (3/4 TB) was not particularly dominant nor was the maternal granddam (TB x New Forest) but her paternal granddam (full TB) was very dominant and was around when P was a foal. Both of mine are very like her in traits and looks.
The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

[
The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.[/QUOTE]