Information on Alpha mares

[sporthorsefrance]

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The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.

[/QUOTE]

Oops pressed wrong button! I would be interested to know how she gets on afterwards. My 6 yr old has hormone problems but Calovet sent her over the top, which isn't supposed to happen! This could be a part of the Alpha thing also.

 

[Irish gal]

She has an amazing 38 TB Queens of the Turf in 6 generations! Many horses with TB genes don't have ANY!

That sounds great, but what does it mean exactly, does it mean she's more likely to produce winners? Her first foal, a filly died within a week; is it only first foals that the Alpha is passed on to, or would colts from her have a higher chance of success then normal because of all the Queens in her family.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

That sounds great, but what does it mean exactly, does it mean she's more likely to produce winners? Her first foal, a filly died within a week; is it only first foals that the Alpha is passed on to, or would colts from her have a higher chance of success then normal because of all the Queens in her family.

I have no experience of a first filly foal dying so I don't know whether in that situation a second filly would take on the Alpha role. The colts would have a higher chance of success, especially the first one, I think. My first colt foal of the second generation went to 3* eventing level & was placed several times at 2*. He was out of the first foal of my original mare & by Classic who is the sire of Classic Moet. There are lots of Queens there & also in her sire line Chantro/Sing Sing. Thanks to Ellen Parker, it's possible to track TB queens but who knows about the queens in other breeds? It would be useful to have a database.

 

[Irish gal]

Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?

That TB mare is by an Ascot Gold Cup and St Ledger winner so not surprised if there are Queens on his side as he's descended from champions, but her dams lot haven't produced a blacktype winner in few generations, so I'm not sure what all the Queens prove. If the mare's brothers and sisters start winning then she might be worth breeding for the track. Would love to investigate this queens in her family thing further, it's fascinating alright.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?

Pressed wrong button AGAIN! She's really easy to talk to - email her with your questions. I'm not saying that breeding a super horse is down to finding an Alpha mare, I'm saying that after looking at the usual stallion routes for improvement, one should also look at the Alpha mare as a big part of the picture. Spoke to Janet Scollay of the Muschamp stud tonight, she has an Ukrainian staying who is researching Trakhener bloodlines for her degree. Have asked her to try & research the mare lines for Alphas.
If you go on to Thoroughbred Pedigree website, all Queens are starred.

 

[Irish gal]

Thanks I see her email on the site, I might do that. It's all very intriguing! I hope you gets lots more feedback from people here for your research and thanks for posting and bringing this to light.

 

[Barnacle]

Millions.

Your concept of an "Alpha mare" came across as vague and ill-defined and I thought such resources might help me - and others who were asking for clarification - to understand what you were referring to. I am familiar with the literature and this is not a concept that is used (or even indicated at) in the way you seem to be implying. Having links to this kind of information (research group, papers etc) would make it much easier for people to get background on the concept so they can provide relevant information and understand what you are asking.

But I'll assume your reply was sarcastic.

 

[fburton]

It seems to me that the term "Alpha mare" has become part of the vernacular for part of the horse world, including some breeders. At least, that is the impression I get from what OP has written. So I think the requested "input" would be more along the lines of anecdote and possibly magazine/newsletter articles than science literature.

In my opinion it would really help to have a list of "alpha signs" - so we know exactly what's being talked about. There may then be a problem in assuming that because there is such a list, they must all refer to the one unified trait, when in reality they may be aspects of entirely different behavioural traits. For example, people have tended to assume that dominance and "leadership" are aspects of the same temperament or personality type whereas in reality they are quite different, with it being entirely normal for one horse to show one and not the other (notwithstanding individuals that happen to show both). It rather depends how "leadership" is defined. It is a notoriously slippery concept because of the constant temptation to view and interpret it through human-tinted glasses. Of course, some people will choose to define "leadership" as dominance.

But first, can we make a definitive list of the "alpha signs"?

 

[Equi]

But first, can we make a definitive list of the "alpha signs"?

I would quite like this too. My own mare i feel is alpha, but i have only got two mares a gelding and a stallion so its not really a big herd. She will lead where they go, move them with a flick of her ear, is never aggressive and has never needed to be, will stop a stallion covering the other mare (my gelding who i feel is top boy will also do this) and generally she looks after the herd.

 

[Irish gal]

I don't think herd size matters Equi, she would do the same with two horses or 25. As well as the list of Alpha traits I would love to know what it is these 'alpha' mares are supposed to pass on to their offspring so we can evaluate this hitherto unknown side of their breeding potential. So a lists of those benefits would be great too. I too think it's very confusing, and on that researher's website - there seems to be no overview of her theory which would be of great benefit...so we could actually understand it

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Your concept of an "Alpha mare" came across as vague and ill-defined and I thought such resources might help me - and others who were asking for clarification - to understand what you were referring to. I am familiar with the literature and this is not a concept that is used (or even indicated at) in the way you seem to be implying. Having links to this kind of information (research group, papers etc) would make it much easier for people to get background on the concept so they can provide relevant information and understand what you are asking.

Dear Barnacle
I apologise for being 'sarcastic' but I find your tone rather aggressive, as is so often a problem with the written word. I presume by literature, you mean Ellen Parker's research on Reines de course? I have exchanged many emails with her over the past few years & she firmly believes that her TB queens are in fact Alpha mares, that may not be totally evident in her writings because she is a respected authority on breeding racehorses & her clients are looking for lines, facts & figures. I contacted her originally because to me, her research showed a link to Alpha mares that I wanted to know more about.

Vague & ill defined? Yes maybe. But I'll try & list the traits that I consider to be true Alpha, but they are only my observations.

1. All other members of the herd of any age perform the foal mouthing submission to the mare at some point, especially newcomers.

2. In a situation where the mare is with another family member amongst strange horses (for instance at stud) she will attack them & refuse to allow them contact with her own. I don't think this is so much aggression as rather protection.

3. She will steal & herd foals from other mares. I am often surprised to see fields full of mares & foals together as my mare & her mother before her would have taken them all.

4. The first filly foal from the mare shows exactly the same tendencies

5. They breed better quality foals than themselves - that one's up for more input or argument please!

6. They are exceptionally good mothers, foaling easily, strong foals but encouraged to be totally independent at a very early age.

7. First to the food & everybody else takes what's left.

8. Aloof & only tolerant of humans. Can be friendly & biddable but only on their terms.

9. A shelter or stable is their personal possession & other horses are banned from entering but may occasionally be invited in.

10. Riding them & competing them has to be a partnership not rider dominance. They are never easy but often brilliant.

11. They are very intelligent.

These points are outside of the general behaviour of a lead mare. There is always a lead mare but not necessarily an Alpha.

Ok everyone you can now pull all that apart & disagree!!

 

[Equi]

I'll agree with the human part. My mate is incredibly indifferent and not very affectionate anymore (when she first came she was the lowest as my gelding was above her) she was very sweet then.

I've been working with her lately and she's getting better though so maybe I'm breaking through to her a little.

 

[Doormouse]

My alpha mare was an exceptional mother and from day one taught her daughter manners and independence. The most classic example of this was the first time they travelled when the foal was 3 months old. We arrived at the field and drove in, let the ramp down and I led the mare down the ramp. The foal was horrified and refused to tackle the ramp, her mother looked back, called her once and then walked away. The foal thought for a few seconds and then leaped from the top of the ramp to join her mother. The mare also happily allowed a gelding to be turned out with her and the foal and in fact considered the gelding a babysitter for her foal and would often be the far side of the field while the foal chewed bits of the gelding for entertainment.
The foal, now 4, is definitely even more talented than her mother and has better conformation.
They both felt that their stables were their own personal space and found constant interruption from humans irritating.

 

[Irish gal]

Honestly, isn't it their disdain for humans that is somehow their most endearing quality. I think my Apha mare 'trained me' to just really ignore her in the field as she clearly wanted no fraternisation with me; so I duly respected her wishes and didn't interfere with her. No need whatsoever for scratches behind the ear or elsewhere!

 

[Equi]

Normally that would be fine lol my mare needs a lot of interaction or she gets ridiculously spooky and I can't catch her and she generally gets very stressed out and "wild". More I do with her the more she settles.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

Thanks equi, Irish gal & Doormouse. At least you have responded. Having supplied my definition of an Alpha mare as requested, the subject has completely dried up. I won't be using this forum again. But many thanks for your input you three.

 

[Alec Swan]

Thanks equi, Irish gal & Doormouse. At least you have responded. Having supplied my definition of an Alpha mare as requested, the subject has completely dried up. I won't be using this forum again. But many thanks for your input you three.

That's called 'flouncing', and flouncing says little for the flouncer! Rejoin with your thoughts, please.

The subject is one of interest and to many. The Irish will tell us, and correctly that 'It's all in the mammy'. The black type mares may well NOT be the alpha mares, and it may well not be the alpha mares which produce the horses that we need, though filly foals may well follow their dam's disposition, but is that honestly what we need?

We gifted a very difficult filly to a very competent girl, and two years later she's now passed the mare on to a stud. I shall follow with interest this mare's progeny. I suspect that her brood-mare status will be short lived. The breeding was wrong, and it's that simple.

Alec.

 

[dominobrown]

I work with TB's and we have about 10 mares breeding for racing.
One 2 year old currently is exactly what you would describe as an Alpha mare. She is out with another 7 horses, and although not the oldest she is definitely the leader.
However, her mother, is not bottom of the pack, but definitely not the Alpha, she won't be bullied, but she follows, normally two other mares are above her. So I am not sure it is heredity, in fact the Alpha broodmares foals are not the leaders, but neither is the most submissive broodmares foals.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

I work with TB's and we have about 10 mares breeding for racing.
One 2 year old currently is exactly what you would describe as an Alpha mare. She is out with another 7 horses, and although not the oldest she is definitely the leader.
However, her mother, is not bottom of the pack, but definitely not the Alpha, she won't be bullied, but she follows, normally two other mares are above her. So I am not sure it is heredity, in fact the Alpha broodmares foals are not the leaders, but neither is the most submissive broodmares foals.

Thank you, our post is very interesting, so rather than take my bat home at the lack of response, I would like to know a bit more please. 2 is very young to take over but that may be because she's a quick to mature TB. Who is her sire? TBs are easy to trace & I would like to look at her pedigree. Is she the first filly foal of the dam?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Thank you, our post is very interesting, so rather than take my bat home at the lack of response, I would like to know a bit more please. 2 is very young to take over but that may be because she's a quick to mature TB. Who is her sire? TBs are easy to trace & I would like to look at her pedigree. Is she the first filly foal of the dam?

TBs are no faster to mature than anything else. This could be an interesting area of study but it needs more than anecdata to prove its point.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

TBs are no faster to mature than anything else. This could be an interesting area of study but it needs more than anecdata to prove its point.

Totally agree, which is why I am asking for genuine information & observations in order to be able to delve a bit deeper & accumulate some facts as opposed to fancies. As to TBs maturing, it's my experience that a warmblood type is much slower to mature but everyone has their own opinion. Mature is maybe the wrong word.

 

[Alec Swan]

The eternal question which we ask ourselves is what is the level of input from the mare, and exactly how is each in coming influence likely to affect the progeny. Will colt foals or fillies have a tendency towards a gender related behaviour or predisposition tendency? It's a subject which may benefit from research, even the anecdotal!

Alec.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Totally agree, which is why I am asking for genuine information & observations in order to be able to delve a bit deeper & accumulate some facts as opposed to fancies. As to TBs maturing, it's my experience that a warmblood type is much slower to mature but everyone has their own opinion. Mature is maybe the wrong word.

maybe, but this is why the choice of language in such a study is so important. Physiologically and skeletally breeds mature the same (although draft horses may be on the far end of the bell curve). Musculature may be different but of course there are many different factors affecting that.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

The eternal question which we ask ourselves is what is the level of input from the mare, and exactly how is each in coming influence likely to affect the progeny. Will colt foals or fillies have a tendency towards a gender related behaviour or predisposition tendency? It's a subject which may benefit from research, even the anecdotal!

Alec.

Yes I agree with that also. I just feel that maybe too much is attributed to the stallion & mares are for the most part ignored. I know so many people who put their very ordinary mares in foal on a whim to a good stallion & wonder why the offspring is not as good as they'd hoped. Yet a true Alpha mare, (ordinary or not) in my experience, will produce offspring far better than herself. Identifying 'Alpha' is difficult perhaps one should say influential - but that is not exactly right either.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

maybe, but this is why the choice of language in such a study is so important. Physiologically and skeletally breeds mature the same (although draft horses may be on the far end of the bell curve). Musculature may be different but of course there are many different factors affecting that.

And mentally?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

And mentally?

any comment I make about when or even if, warmbloods ever mature mentally might mean a lynch mob after me

 

[sporthorsefrance]

any comment I make about when or even if, warmbloods ever mature mentally might mean a lynch mob after me

I originally said 'warmblood type'!!! Don't get me on to my pet subject of why aren't we breeding true British warmbloods from the Shire, who were originally warhorses not agricultural dumbos. ShirexTBs are fantastic, 2nd generation even better. Very intelligent too!

 

[tristar]

i had an alpha mare, very disinterested In humans, often awkward to catch, and not easy to school, yet had natural talent jumping if left to do the job, all other horses respected her, one day a gelding notorious for attacking other horses was in her way, she actually bunted him up the bum with her nose and moved him, I closed my eyes, but he just moved away. that pic stays In my mind and you could send out someone for a hack on her and `know` she would bring them back safe.

I now have her gelding grandson, he is very human dominant, able to think for himself, super intelligent, passes everything on the road, with him its a 50 50 relationship sometimes 50 51, just to say `oi`, I should really do the saying, he learns everything first time, yet I feel he will be super reliable and very genuine, and I feel she has passed a lot on to him, so I think in our case she has dominated through breeding.

 

[sporthorsefrance]

i had an alpha mare, very disinterested In humans, often awkward to catch, and not easy to school, yet had natural talent jumping if left to do the job, all other horses respected her, one day a gelding notorious for attacking other horses was in her way, she actually bunted him up the bum with her nose and moved him, I closed my eyes, but he just moved away. that pic stays In my mind and you could send out someone for a hack on her and `know` she would bring them back safe.

I now have her gelding grandson, he is very human dominant, able to think for himself, super intelligent, passes everything on the road, with him its a 50 50 relationship sometimes 50 51, just to say `oi`, I should really do the saying, he learns everything first time, yet I feel he will be super reliable and very genuine, and I feel she has passed a lot on to him, so I think in our case she has dominated through breeding.

Thank you for sending this info. Was the gelding grandson her first foal? Please respond, so many people don't! My gelding grandson exactly the same and went international, first born from alpha mare.