Instructor, right or wrong? long one

[barkinghorse]

Ok, you are all probably sick to death of hearing the highs and lows of William, but need a little advice.
He has good days and bad days, but his bad days are horrendous,
I had a lesson yesterday with my instuctor who up to now i have got on with very well.
I explained to her that with work being so busy i had not done as much with him as i would have liked this week, and we had no turn out for a few days due to the weather, so he would be a little sharp and fresh.
I struggled through 20 mins of my lesson with him, me asking him to bend and be more forward in his trot, him responding with typical indignation, bucking and slamming on.
Then instructor got on as she normally does when he's playing up. WELL, he refused to go forward bucking and rearing, refusing to go on the correct leg in canter, you could see he was working out how NOT to do as he was asked and after a battle that lasted 45 mins, she said there was no way he was going to do it that day and she would ride him again on Tuesday.
She then got really cross with me, saying that i am far too soft with him, he is not the poor victimised horse he was 2 years ago and that if i didn't start getting really tough with him, i would have a dangerous horse on my hands as he knows his own strength and uses it against me. She said that i should not cuddle and treat him, and that brushing alone should be a treat.
He had whip marks across his flanks and was dripping with sweat. His eyes were wild but not in a scared way, he's the type of horse that looks as if to say "that didn't hurt" if you smack him.
Is she right?
I want my horse to WANT to do as i ask, and if that means negotiating with him over a period of time, is that so wrong?
I do spoil him since losing Jess, but he's an absolute love in the stable and endears himself to every one.
I know i'm soft, but i have only recently got my confidence back with him, and don't want to lose it by being chucked off every 5 mins ( not that he has ever tried to get anyone off).
Should i do as she says, or look for a new instructor?
She is highly qualified and used to 3 day event, so i know she knows her stuff.
Well done for reading this far
Jo

 

[Bossanova]

In my mind, we keep our horses to enjoy ourselves- if you enjoy giving him a fuss and dont mind that he can be a bit bolshy then thats up to you, sounds a little out of order for your instructor to tell you how to treat him, even if some of what she says is true!!

 

[Sal_E]

Hard to say without understanding the situation better. However, to suggest that getting 'tough' involves not cuddling your horse in the stable is a bit odd! It may be that he needs more assertive RIDING, but he won't associate your actions in the stable with riding.

I would be wanting to better understand the bucking/rearing/not going forward - doesn't really sound like a fresh horse, quite the opposite in fact. Are you absolutely sure it's not intermittent pain you're dealing with? How would he be if he's lunged first?

Your instructor is right about potentially having a dangerous horse on your hands (this latest lesson sounds pretty dangerous in fact!), but how to deal with it depends on the reasons for him doing it.

 

[Gwenneh]

Well, in part I am inclined to agree - I know of a lady who *was* too soft with her horse and he took advantage of that all of the time! The trainer stepped in, did pretty much what you described for a few lessons - not letting him get away with anything, and it looked like one heck of a battle - sweat pouring off of both of them by the end, both of them well and truly exhausted with each other. In the end, the lady worked out that she DID, in fact, need to be a stronger rider and realized that her horse was taking the p*ss, and so had to work on riding with more confidence and authority. The training methods used by the trainer were, of necessity, pretty harsh looking, but the horse in question was becoming a danger to ride otherwise, and I don't think she used any more than was neccessary.

I would be inclined to trust the trainer, but only to a certain point. It would depend wholly on the results after a few sessions.

 

[PapaFrita]

Hm, I think she might have a point, but thrashing him (especially if he doesn't seem to be bothered) isn't the way to go. Before I got Antifaz he was rather badly treated and regularly got a thrashing. He started off really nicely with me and got progressively more and more bolshy, eventually turning into a bucking machine. He too, however, was an absolute darling in the stable.
I had to take him right back to basics and start again. I was firm but not cruel, I rode him every day without fail (although I understand not everyone has this luxury) and I never, ever used a whip (not that I'm against a correctly used whip, but given his history I thought it best not). Most schooling sessions were kept short and ended while he was still doing as I asked. If he was very, very naughty I'd just hack him a bit and try another day. Several months down the road he is much more cooperative but still has naughty moments. Now though, I've learnt how to work with his little quirks than against them.

 

[Fairynuff]

If you have confidence in her then I would say, stick with her. Many horses have larger than life characters and some good old "you will do it if it kills me" doesnt go amiss.I feel he has been taking the mickey out of you and its best to sort it out now before he gets too above himself. A whack on the arse wont kill him, probably just damage his pride for 5 minutes.

Give him love and cuddles in his box but when its time to work, make him. Mairi.

 

[barkinghorse]

I have had his back, teeth, poll, and saddle checked.
I have also had his hocks and neck xrayed and a vetting done about 6 mths ago.
He a is very highly strung ex racer who came to me in terrible condition and with no confidence.
I lunge him for 20 mins before i ride him to loosen him up and also because although he's 7 yrs old, he's very green and was broken last year and turned away.
If he's jumping, he's in his element! he is very brave and will tackle anything you put in front of him ( unfortunatley that also includes the paddock fence!)
But he hates flat work.
Jo

 

[Gwenneh]

It sounds like you've eliminated the possibility that this behaviour is from pain, then...so perhaps your instructor is right.

 

[vicijp]

Im going to sit on the fence.
He sounds like a lot of horses I know, if you get into an argument they do their damned hardest to win. The trick is to either make them think what you are thinking without them knowing, or simply dont argue when you are not going to win.
For example, today, you knew things were going to be difficult - a flatwork lesson probably wasnt the best idea. May have been better to go out for a hack, then when he had settled down to try and get some work out of him?
If he is as highly strung as you say then hitting him or trying to tire him out wont work. Keep his mind busy and take him by surprise. I am all for giving a horse a crack if they are taking the mick, but if he is the horse I think he is then he just needs educating and all avenues need to be explored - which could take months.
Id ditch the instructor, you cant force a horse to work - they have to want to. Good luck in getting him to want to.

 

[Sal_E]

Hmmm, sounds like it's PROBABLY in his head then. I wonder why he hates it so much - boredom, lack of confidence, confusion, or maybe negative reinforcement from being whipped! I would certainly consider the attitude you've described as a problem, but not too sure how best to deal with - really depends on personality of horse. My first approach would be to treat it as proper napping - i.e. stand him DEAD still (not even allowed to move his head) for longer than he wants to, then reward (vocally) for forward movement at your request etc... It doesn't sound as if the thrashing is really working, does it?

 

[barkinghorse]

I keep being told he's "rogue" as all his sires offspring have lovely dispositions and are normally laid back, Surely each horse takes on his own personality?

 

[vicijp]

Horses are made by whoever handles them, nearly all can be sorted out with a bit of time. Although I firmly believe that some sires do pass down their bad bits, they can be overcome if dealt with properly from the start.
Whos he by, out of interest?

 

[barkinghorse]

Lord David S

 

[Irishcobs]

[ QUOTE ]
Lord David S

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey he has good breeding! No idea about their temps though, but Nijinsky and Northern Dancer were very good horses.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

A horse is a large, strong, free thinking animal who, if not controlled has the potential to cause you serious injury. I'm not saying don't love him & fuss him, he needs that, but more importantly he also needs to know where he stands in the pecking order . You are the boss & he must be told that. If he thinks he's the boss, and he seems to be showing this now, then the potential for a major problem is there. You cannot afford to give him an inch, you appear to have & he's taken it as a weakness & he is capitalising on it now. This behaviour needs sorting out rapidly otherwise you will have an unrideable & uncontrollable horse. You must be firm with him & be resolute.

You may not like what your instructor did but she is probably right in what she did. The resistance that he is showing is not just naughtiness he is trying to assert his dominance. He has got away with it with you but your instructor knew what he was trying & was not going to allow him to get away with it. I think you should stick with your instructor for the time being & see how things progress.

 

[air78]

Your horse is green, and is clearly still getting used to a new way of riding and 'going' due to him being an ex racer. If anyone rode my horse and he came back with whip marks on his flanks i would go mental with them. IMO that is unacceptable.
YES, you are paying for their 'expertise' and 'advise'; but you are the customer in this situation, and your feelings count. If you feel uncomfortable with your instructors methods, find another one who understands your feelings and motivation better. She should also understand that not everyone can ride all the time, and how much you do between lessons is FA to do with her! You are paying for an hours tuition, and whilst we should all have goals, how you use your time is your business.
Also, being 'soft' with your horse in the stable and being affectionate with him is OK, if that is the kind of person you are. After all, you are trying to build a partnership with your horse, not just be his 'boss'.

I should also say that i do use a whip, if i think it is appropriate,; but i prefer to enjoy doing things my horse (an ex racer) finds easy and focusing on the good bits- i don't want him to go for me through suffering. It should be fun!
I hope you can find a happy medium!

 

[Broodle]

Hmmm... In my (limited) experience of ex-racers, and from what I know from others with more experience, a determined "you will do it if it kills me" approach can backfire with such neddies. They seem to get more and more worked up and upset, and rarely reach the "oh well, you win" decision that many less sensitive horses would. Of course, you have to be firm and consistent etc. etc., but your instructor's approach might be a bit too harsh for your boy. Perhaps you could explain your concerns to her and see what she thinks?

Good luck!

 

[Nari]

Personally I'd find a different teacher if I were you.

Vicijp's first reply pretty much sums up my feelings. One thing that immediately stands out to me is you say she normally gets on when he's playing up. Why? To my mind she needs to teach you how to ride him when he's like this, not take over & do it for you. Also from how you dewscribe William I can't see her approach helping and certainly today it sounds as though she eventually gave up without him doing as he was asked - not helpful. She then blamed you! I don't care how highly qualified a teacher is or what level they've competed at, I wouldn't allow myself or my horse to be treated in that way let alone pay for the "privilage"!

 

[cosmo_sam]

My gut feeling from the impression of your feelings from your post would be to change instructors.

I don't believe instructors should make us feel bad. Yes of course they're there to guide us, and I would rather an instructor give me their honest opinion but there is such a thing as diplomacy! Blurting out things in frustration that make you feel bad about yourself and your horse is not professional.

As for her methods, well my instructor is no slouch when it comes to being firm. She does however always stress that it is better to avoid going head to head with a horse and would use a diversion tactic rather than a full on confrontation.

Your instructor stated to you that your horse has learned his own strength against you etc. Well it seems to me that she must have been teaching you how to go head to head with him as it's only then that they do learn their own strength.

How getting even tougher will convince him you're stronger now seems irrational to me.

I would say if it's not working, change your approach, don't just keep saying the same thing but louder!!!

As for whether you're "soft" on your horse. Do you tolerate bad behaviour on the ground and make excuses for him? Does he push you around? It certainly doesn't sound that way to me.

In my opinion from the small amount of info you've given I would say that you may be reluctant to be "tough" when you're riding, as you don't truly have faith in the methods you're being told to use. This could be making your horse confused but I reckon it's you that's confused too.

Just trust your instincts and listen to your horse.

I hope this helps

Sam x

 

[siennamum]

I know of an instructor whose pupil's horses have to be regularly 'sorted' out, that have submission issues and that have to go to 'boot camp' at her place. (she's always on board herself) It's clear to me that she is the one with issues. Some people simply lack horse sense. They don't allow the horse to enjoy it's job, they confuse it or they frustrate it. There are ongoing issues with behaviour,(and very often soundness) yours sounds a bit the same, I wndered whether you were based in the SW

She may have a point, and you may be too soft, but his behaviour is rather extreme. I would review all his management, and try a break from too much flat work, especially when he's feeling fresh, focus on having fun and strengthening your relationship. School on hacks, reward him for small obediences. I've had schooling sessions with Sienna where when we enter the arena and she is wonderfully submissive we stop straight away and go on a hack.
Go to RC clinics and try some different trainers, you may get some insight into your 'issues' and you won't offend your trainer.
Give him a break from lessons. Try and see things from his point of view, maybe he;s trying to tell you something, I agree with you though the most important issue you have is that he must want to work for/with you.......

 

[AmyMay]

Dump your instructor. Work quietly on your own until the summer - and then when you've reached some sort of equilibrium get a new one. It sounds as if at the moment an instructor is a total waste of money anyway - you've got to just concentrate on getting him to think that going in the school can be fun.

Does he like to jump?? If so - Go out for a hack, come back to the school and pop him over one or two fences and then go out.

Another day - go in the school. Walk nicely around the arena on both reins - then leave and go out for a hack.

Then - repeat a couple of times a week. Before you know it the horse will be working nicely in the school without realising he's doing it.

Good luck - I've had one of those - just think tactfully and you'll end up a winner.

 

[miamibear]

This is a difficult one for me to reply to! I dont want to offend you so please dont take this as such just my experiences

I have a friend who has a horse who was petrified and now is taking the mick basically.

She rides him so kindly - no detriment to her because i much prefer to see kind riders than harsh ones BUT he is taking the mick out of her big time.

He is no longer the big scaredy cat that he was and needs consistant proper riding. He also plays up when our instructor gets on him because he gets so used to getting his own way with his owner that when asked to do simple things properly he doesnt understand why he cant do them his way!

In our situation the owner needs to ride him more like a horse and less like her "baby" and over all be consitant or he will never improve.

Im not saying this is the same for you because all horse and person partnerships are different and if you have only just got your confidence back you wont want to push him too hard and the worst thing you can do is go any faster progressing than you are comfortable with.

I am just explaining i would have once had an answer to this that consisted of do what you want he is your horse - and i still believe this but you wont progress as far or as fast or in my friends case at all.

I have seen both the sides to the coin.

Mel x

 

[barkinghorse]

How can i possibly be offended when you have hit the nail on the head!!
It sounds like you know me and i am and do everything you describe!!
As for hacking, i don't hack because he is too strong in open spaces and seems to forget i'm on board!
I think mybe all the schooling is souring him a little, there is a girl on the yard that loves hacking fresh horses and deals with him very well, so maybe i will let her take him out so he has a change of scenery, as i said in my first post, he wouldn't dream of throwing his rider, everything he does is an objection and letting me know he doesn't agree with me..
Jo

 

[miamibear]

You sound a lot like my friend, she will hack in company but not alone because he is silly. I do understand this as she may be putting herself in danger attempting it on her own, but we have a small farm track she could hack down and i think he is ready for it now. I have been escorting her for the last 4 months.

Its one thing saying these things and another me getting on her horse and showing her how its done! So i just offer my advice, help and support when she needs it.

Sometimes however i have to grit my teeth, she will let him troll round the school in a pathetic fast no control trot, claiming to be a bad rider and that he is "on his toes" or "not listening today" and i just advise her to not take any sh*t and half halt him, if he wants to trot wildly stop him and walk because it gets him in to the habit of being allowed to trot like an idiot when he can do better.

She isnt asking him for high schooling movements just a nice trot and walk - she hasnt even cantered him yet properly in the school - in 3 years because he just does the wall of death! She didnt even canter him on the lunge until recently and now thats coming on nicely

Part of the reason with her is that he was a wreck when he came and had physical problems - she has thrown money at him with physio, new saddle, flair, hundreds of bits and really all it comes down to is consistant riding.

Even getting him on the lunge and reinforcing dicipline from your end that way will help.

She cant even get on by herself because he backs up, then walks on and he isnt scared and in no pain, he is just being a twit.

I dont think you have all these problems, we all have issues and soft points with our horses but the key to effective riding is consistancy.

Probably your instructor getting on him wont be doing him any good, it will just give him an excuse to be an idiot. Every person rides different and uses their weight differently and has a different fault.

My advice - for what its worth would be for you to keep riding him but keep on with your lessons - listen to your instructor and ride him like he is there for your pleasure and to do what you want and dont let her get on him for a while until you have sorted him out and got it in your head what you are doing. Obviously the hacking is a good idea as it will break up the week nicely for him.

Having more lessons if you can afford them will help too because it will keep you thinking about your faults (we all have them) and correcting them.

Above all believe in yourself, you wont break your horse and asking him to do simple things wont harm him, in the wild they would do anything they had to to survive.

Just imagine all the money you put in to him and all the nice things you do for him - he can surely work as a normal horse for you for an hour a day!

Mel x

 

[Sparklet]

I agree with everything Mel says but would like life a bit easier for yourself too. You say in your original post that you couldnt do much with him because you were too busy and he had had no turn out because of the weather.

Very fresh horses dont listen so you can never get the best out of them. You need to work him consistently with the odd day off only if it is a turn out day.

Mine would be impossible if I didnt do much and then tried to have a lesson.

 

[AmyMay]

Coming back to this - but I wonder if this is the horse for you??

You have no winter turnout - you can't necessarily put the work in to him every day - he is a live wire - you 'can't' hack him out.

This sounds like a high maintenance horse to me that may be suited to a different environment?????? This could be half - if not - all of your problem.

 

[miamibear]

I wouldnt like to say what you just have Amymay but it did cross my mind, this is what i started like on Bailey - didnt want to hack out. Was struggling schooling, confidence seriously taken a beating. It just went from bad to worse and i lost all confidence, i finally sold him and it was the best thing i did.

I am now the rider i used to be, will hack on my own, school and even a little jump - im now really enjoying my hobby and thats what its all about.

Im not saying this is the same for you barkinghorse but maybe its time to have a serious think?

xx

 

[AmyMay]

Mmm - just doesn't sound like any fun for either of them......

 

[barkinghorse]

We do have winter turnout, but last week would have been too dangerous to turn out as it is clay based round here, and very slippy. We had freak storms and flash floods
I had 7 emergency callouts in 4 days plus all my other booked work.
It is very unusual for me not to be able to ride at least 5 days a week, even if he is out i bring him in and ride.
Even then he can be arrogant when ridden.
I am the only one that can handle him on the ground and no one else can turn him out, as he bolts up the lane.
(If i am not around they turn him out in the field next to the stable and open gates untill he is in the desired field).
On the ground we had altercations in the beginning but i made sure i won every one of them.
In his stable he knows his place and if i walk round he knows to move out of my way. in hand he now knows he walks at the side of me, never in front or behind and knows to respect my space.
I have got all of this from him, and in time i WILL get it when i'm on his back.
There is absolutely no way i am giving up, it is just taking a lot longer than i thought and am running out of ideas.

 

[Sparklet]

Your determination is admirable