Instructor's advice/opinion vs my own (opinion)

[Deleted member 163966]

Do you blindly follow any and all advice from your instructor/trainer, or do you just do what feels right to you and your horse and if that means you're not perfect, then so be it?

For example - My instructor has been riding my horse quite a lot recently, due to me having had an accident and being out of action for a while. (Long story!). Horse is ridden in a standard cavesson noseband with a loose ring snaffle and seems to be perfectly OK with that - to me anyhow. Looks comfortable, goes nicely, no pulling or other silliness etc etc. Instructor is now telling me that she thinks horsey needs either a drop noseband or a flash noseband to discourage it from being "mouthy". I have a couple of issues with that. Firstly, I cant see why - horse looks fine to me (but what do I know?!), and, secondly, I have a huge personal aversion to flash straps or any type of similar device which fits below the bit and effectively clamps the horse's mouth shut. I just can't stand them and have no desire to use such a thing on my horse unless it is absolutely necessary for safety reasons - in which case, I probably wouldn't ride the horse at all!

So, what would you do? Take well intentioned (but - to me, mis-guided) advice and attach a flash strap to my bridle, or tell the instructor that it's not going to happen for better or worse? All opinions welcome. Thanks.

 

[sbloom]

On this one stick with your gut, there is plenty of evidence and explanation out there as to why your point of view is the more horse-centred one. On other topics then maybe your trainer is right, but overall you're the only one that can advocate for your horse, I think all you can do is ask questions, challenge the answers gently where appropriate, and make your own decisions. I'm not sure I'd want to be with a trainer who wanted to shut a horse's mouth as to me it speaks to their overall view, but only you know whether that's the right option for you.

 

[Widgeon]

Actually I wouldn't do either - I would talk through exactly what she thinks is going on and why a drop etc will resolve it / educate the horse. Then, if you still don't agree, I would quietly do nothing, and if she asks about it, I'd say that you're grateful for the advice and you've thought it over and decided that at present you'd rather not change the noseband.

If it was me I would be reluctant to change the noseband, in this case. You certainly don't HAVE to take her advice - it's your horse, and you have to advocate for it when necessary.

 

[ponynutz]

Actually I wouldn't do either - I would talk through exactly what she thinks is going on and why a drop etc will resolve it / educate the horse. Then, if you still don't agree, I would quietly do nothing, and if she asks about it, I'd say that you're grateful for the advice and you've thought it over and decided that at present you'd rather not change the noseband.

Exactly this. You pay her to teach you and give you advice but it's a working relationship and you DO spend more time with your horse than she does. Ask questions, be curious, and talk it through with her. See if in your next lesson she could point out when she thinks he is being 'mouthy' so you can get a better picture of what she is seeing.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I'd do as Widgeon describes.

Just had a similar situation with my trainer, different tack discussion but similar situation, I discussed it, understood the reasons, the time frames and the objectives and we are going ahead.

There is a reason i am paying her to train my horse, I did the background research in advance and knew her strengths and the end product she delivers so it wouldn't be sensible to reject a suggestion without consideration.

 

[Snow Falcon]

I was advised to put my mare in a drop to keep the bit more stable as she was fussing slightly. I did, but instructors would tighten it which annoyed me as if she was uncomfortable then she had no way of telling me.

I went for a clinic with a recommended dressage coach, she told me to tighten noseband and put spurs on. I didn't have another lesson with either again and found a new instructor. She was much more sympathetic and was the right person for me and my pony.

I'd discuss why she thinks its necessary and explain why you're not comfortable with them.

 

[irishdraft]

No I wouldn't blindly follow anyone's advice tbh, as others have said discuss reasons which could be valid or go your own way.

 

[ihatework]

In response to this particular question this is comes across quite preloaded and emotional.

You don’t like flashes. Fair enough, I support you that the goal should not be to use them automatically, the aim is to have a happy confident horse in the contact and ideally in a cavesson.

I challenge you that you are automatically putting a strap into a ‘clamp the mouth shut’ category.
Sometimes they are used like that.
But they don’t have to be.
There are plenty of horses that like the support a correctly fitted lower strap offers - doesn’t necessarily need to be a flash, could be a grackle, drop or some of the newer designs.

If you are using a clamp the mouth shut at all costs trainer - why on earth do you continue using them??

If they aren’t that sort of trainer then maybe it’s worth listening to and discussing with them ….

 

[TPO]

In response to this particular question this is comes across quite preloaded and emotional.

You don’t like flashes. Fair enough, I support you that the goal should not be to use them automatically, the aim is to have a happy confident horse in the contact and ideally in a cavesson.

I challenge you that you are automatically putting a strap into a ‘clamp the mouth shut’ category.
Sometimes they are used like that.
But they don’t have to be.
There are plenty of horses that like the support a correctly fitted lower strap offers - doesn’t necessarily need to be a flash, could be a grackle, drop or some of the newer designs.

If you are using a clamp the mouth shut at all costs trainer - why on earth do you continue using them??

If they aren’t that sort of trainer then maybe it’s worth listening to and discussing with them ….

Also, a loose ring tends to encourage more play. If the aim is stillness, it might be worth discussing bit changes e.g. an eggbutt/fixed cheek rather than a noseband change.

 

[Rowreach]

Entirely up to you, it's your horse although I'd question why you are paying someone whose opinion you don't agree with to ride your horse and give you lessons and advice.

Also, if you believe that the purpose of a flash is to "clamp the mouth shut" then it is probably worth getting someone to explain to you what a properly fitted drop/flash actually does and why it might be used.

 

[Caol Ila]

I've come across more trainers who I would not listen to than ones I would. It's really hard to find a trainer who is on the same page.

I had a trainer put a very inexperienced kid (me, age 13, not a riding prodigy) in a Dr. Bristol. No one explained that this was actually a very harsh bit. Luckily I got a different trainer a few months later who had us change to a friendly lozenge loose-ring snaffle.

I had a trainer tell me to ride a very on-the-forehand, leaning horse in a double bridle. Neither me nor horse were educated enough for the double, not even close, but trainer said the curb action would teach her to get off the forehand. I was 17, so I may have followed this one. Oops.

Same trainer advocated for the flash when riding in a snaffle. I eventually got rid of that.

I had a trainer ask me if he could set up a jump about three minutes after I told him my horse was green as a green thing, and this was his second time being properly ridden in the school. I said no to that one.

I had a trainer who had me hurling aforesaid green horse around 10m circle after 10m circle, or 10m S-bend after S-bend, for a pretty relentless 45 minutes, mostly in trot. Again, I had gone into great detail on horse's background. If the horse was a greenbroke 4-year old (pretty much his education level at that moment), would you ride like that? No. I went with it at the time, making the assumption that the pro knew more than me, but the horse was becoming braced and resistent, and when I thought about it afterwards, it was obvious why, and I felt stupid for not advocating on his behalf at the time. I dunno....maybe he looks less green than he is?

 

[Fieldlife]

Entirely up to you, it's your horse although I'd question why you are paying someone whose opinion you don't agree with to ride your horse and give you lessons and advice.

Also, if you believe that the purpose of a flash is to "clamp the mouth shut" then it is probably worth getting someone to explain to you what a properly fitted drop/flash actually does and why it might be used.

Most flash straps ARE used to stop the horse opening his mouth. When opening his mouth may be his way of showing discomfort at what he is being asked to do.

I am fully aware of the actions of drop, cavesson, grackle and flash, and crank and flash. And the pressure testing results.

 

[sbloom]

The issue with the flash is that, "correctly" adjusted, it must be pretty tight in the cavesson part in order for the "drop" part to actually work to quiet the mouth and not pull the cavesson part down. The design, rather than the fitting, IS the issue as the angle and placement of the flash strap just isn't very good at doing the job of the drop. They were always a compromise and I believe were developed in order to be able to use a standing martingale with some action of a dropped noseband, and they were seized upon by the auction riders as being a useful way to mask schooling issues best show off young horses.

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::

Noseband Special: Part I: The History of the Noseband

Noseband Special: Part I: The History of the Noseband Dressage News at eurodressage.com

www.eurodressage.com

 

[Deleted member 163966]

Entirely up to you, it's your horse although I'd question why you are paying someone whose opinion you don't agree with to ride your horse and give you lessons and advice.

Also, if you believe that the purpose of a flash is to "clamp the mouth shut" then it is probably worth getting someone to explain to you what a properly fitted drop/flash actually does and why it might be used.

Thank you for all the comments. As a general rule I have a very good working relationship with said instructor and generally agree with, and respect, her views on things - whether it's a matter of training, tack or anything else. But, yes, I do believe the purpose of the flash, drop, grackle or any similar device such as some of the more modern anatomical bridles etc (ie - anything which straps below the bit in the horse's chin groove) is principally to keep the horse's mouth shut. Why else would it be there? (Maybe you could explain?) The reasons for doing that may be perfectly valid to some people, but, to me, a horse needs too be able to flex its jaw when being ridden, and anything fastened tightly round its jaw prevents that from happening. And if the strap isn't fastened tightly enough do this, then why bother to have it there in the first place? I remain perfectly happy to be educated on the issue, however, so feel free to add more comments.

My trainer certainly isn't someone who would always/automatically use a flash, but she has yet to convince me that - in this case - the horse needs such a thing to progress.

To @TPO ... not sure why you think the question is "pre-loaded and emotional" - it's just something which has occurred in my life and the life of my horse and I'm looking for wider opinions on it. Not just on the issue of flash nosebands, but on the wider question of whether you just take the word of a professional on a matter to do with your horse; or do you factor in your own preferences and opinions, gain knowledge where that is lacking, and make a balanced decision which is right for everyone - but especially the horse - which has no say in the matter either way. Yes, I pay this person for their time, knowledge and expertise, but that doesn't mean I have to follow their every comment slavishly. I am still allowed to have my own opinions, ask questions and form my own opinions.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have learned over the years to listen to the professionals, including the vet and then make my own mind up.

 

[Barton Bounty]

@PinkUnicorn personally I would listen to her advice and politely decline

If what you are doing is working for you I would stay on track

 

[TPO]

To @TPO ... not sure why you think the question is "pre-loaded and emotional" -

I don't? I didn't say that

 

[lme]

I would maybe have a conversation and explain that you prefer not to use a flash. Maybe they can suggest an alternative bit your horse might prefer to the loose ring snaffle. I don’t use flashes but did go through a few trial bits before settling on one my current ridden horse approved of.

 

[Deleted member 163966]

I don't? I didn't say that

Apologies, I quoted the wrong response. I was replying to a comment from @ihatework ....

 

[Quigleyandme]

I saw something on Facebook a few days ago in relation to flash nose bands. I don’t use one by the way. I ride my giant four year old in a loose cavesson and a D ring jointed snaffle with half a lip wrinkle. In the video they hung a skeleton of a horse’s head wearing a bridle and bit from the ceiling so it was positioned as if on the vertical. They then gradually took up the contact to ascertain at what point the bit caused the lower mandible to open and it didn’t take much.

 

[moosea]

Most flash straps ARE used to stop the horse opening his mouth. When opening his mouth may be his way of showing discomfort at what he is being asked to do.

I am fully aware of the actions of drop, cavesson, grackle and flash, and crank and flash. And the pressure testing results.

Yes they are but that's not what they are for.

Thank you for all the comments. As a general rule I have a very good working relationship with said instructor and generally agree with, and respect, her views on things - whether it's a matter of training, tack or anything else. But, yes, I do believe the purpose of the flash, drop, grackle or any similar device such as some of the more modern anatomical bridles etc (ie - anything which straps below the bit in the horse's chin groove) is principally to keep the horse's mouth shut. Why else would it be there? (Maybe you could explain?) The reasons for doing that may be perfectly valid to some people, but, to me, a horse needs too be able to flex its jaw when being ridden, and anything fastened tightly round its jaw prevents that from happening. And if the strap isn't fastened tightly enough do this, then why bother to have it there in the first place? I remain perfectly happy to be educated on the issue, however, so feel free to add more comments.

Flash is supposed to be used to stabalise the bit in the horses mouth.

 

[ycbm]

The fact is that a strap below the bit, however well it's adjusted and whatever purpose it has been put on for does, inevitably, also have the action of preventing a horse from using an open mouth to demonstrate unhappiness.

 

[moosea]

The fact is that a strap below the bit, however well it's adjusted and whatever purpose it has been put on for does, inevitably, also have the action of preventing a horse from using an open mouth to demonstrate unhappiness.

Very true, of course it prevents the mouth being opened, but that's not what it should be used for.
There are other methods for stabilising the mouth piece, for example using an eggbutt instead of a loose ring, so maybe that's an option to try?

 

[TPO]

Apologies, I quoted the wrong response. I was replying to a comment from @ihatework ....

No worries, it happens

Far be it from me to answer on ihw behalf but from my POV I would be the same (I.e. if I posted the OP it would be loaded and an emotional response).

I have an extreme dislike of flashes and people who use them automatically without understanding the whys. So if someone suggested it to me I'd be pretty closed off to hearing their reasoning.

I don't even know you/instructor/horse and because of my bias I've already formed an opinion of them based on one snippet of information.

That's 100% my bad and I am working on being less black and white. There are shades of grey (no, not those awful books and films).

So I can see where IHW might have been coming from because she's probably met people like me

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Very true, of course it prevents the mouth being opened, but that's not what it should be used for.
There are other methods for stabilising the mouth piece, for example using an eggbutt instead of a loose ring, so maybe that's an option to try?

No matter what the reasoning behind using a flash, the 'unintended consequence' will be that the horse can't open its mouth. If you don't want to stop the horse opening its mouth, you should find another method of achieving whatever it is that was your intention.
OP, has your instructor mentioned that your horse is 'mouthy' before? Do you agree? It seems very odd that RI should immediately mention a flash rather then e.g. a teeth check if this a new thing.

 

[Jellymoon]

In answer to your initial question, which I believe was: ‘do you blindly follow the suggestions of your trainer no matter what?’ I used to when I was younger, absolutely, and I’m ashamed of many of the things I did to my horses, or allowed someone else to do to them because I was in awe/young/inexperienced.

Now I’m older and wiser I am more picky about who I have lessons with in the first place - I do my research. My aim is for it to be a meeting of minds these days, rather than an old school instructor/pupil relationship. At some point, you have to believe in your own methods - any one of us who have been riding several horses for many years could be one of these trainers, they are not elusive gods, they just have the confidence to put themselves forwards.

They might make a bit or noseband suggestion to me, and I think, ‘nah, don’t like that idea’, and more often than not, it’s forgotten about and not mentioned again.
No big deal.

 

[JBM]

I do what I feel is best for my horse..the only instructor I had for a very long time (not many places to go here) told me there was no point going bitless as I would never get my horse to work right cuz she had to be “on the bit”
If I listened to her my horse would still hate work

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I always try and do what I think is right for my horse. I will listen to suggestions on tack and other things but ultimately I know my horse and sometimes it means a ' thank you for your advice but I'm going to stick with ......'. I'm sure if I'd followed trainers advice to the dot I would be competing at a much higher level than where I am now but I know to get there I would have a very unhappy horse and I'd be stressed too!

 

[Kaylum]

Have you a photo of your bridle being worn? The bit might be hitting the molars, might be too thick for the horses mouth. Like already said loose rings give movement. Your bridle might not fit comfortably. There are lots of different scenarios. Many trainers are now learning about tack fitting thankfully but others still need to understand the importance of this.

 

[Peglo]

an instructor told me I would have more control if I put a noseband and flash on my pony. It was only our second time on a XC course and she wasn’t out of control or particularly strong but possibly a bit unsure and I didn’t ride that well. I thought she did so well and tried so hard for me.
I would’ve accepted her advice more if she said we needed a bit more training but more tack seemed to be the first port of call. I didn’t take that advice.

When she suggested it did you notice your horse doing anything that made her look unhappy or not working well?