Insulin resistance questions - very long winded saga!

swellhillcottage

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Not sure where to start as this is a looooooooooooooong story - I bought a rising 4 year old Connie pony that was wrong behind for no obvious reason other than being recently gelded, he was at the right price and lovely so I wanted to give him a chance - I turned him away for 6 months and once brought back in his hind end was much improved but not 100% and all I did with him in the Spring and early Summer of 2015 was tootle around allowing him to grow and mature slowly.
Once the ground firmed up around May time the pony went short on the right rein in front and after playing around with shoes, pads and eventually x-rays and blocks he was diagnosed with Palma Heel pain in front. No sooner was he diagnosed with the "Navi Syndrome" the farrier came out severely cut his feet back then applied bar shoes and he went down with some sort of Laminitis - 1 week of complete box rest and then ridden slowly but gradually increase of work load in the school, living on soaked hay and no grass or hard grub and 4 weeks later at the vet follow up he looked amazing - almost 95 % sound on workup which included lunging circles on hard surface and this included his hind end - the vet saying it was barely noticeable and didn't know where to start looking- crack on! So we did and to be fair he started to go reasonably well - all of this from the stable with increasing amounts of limited turnout and grass.
Because he had always felt slightly pottery in shoes and was not great about being shod and to be fair did have generally great feet my plan was to take his shoes off when the time was right and see what happened, this was against the vets advice but after a lot of research and thought I had also come to the conclusion the Navi was a misdiagnosis and he was more likely suffering with low grad lami (the animal in question is a 14.2 glutenous chunky Connie gelding) - this happened sooner rather than later as a week after a new set of shoes he pulled a front off so I decided to pull the other 3 - BIG mistake - farrier pulled off his shoes and the poor fellow was so so sore - in hind sight I should have reapplied the lost one and waited :( I hold my hands up - sadly the poor devil had 12.2 feet on a 14.2 body which he suffered with for a few months - he was living out by this point on what I think was very well managed grass track system and given small amounts of hay twice a day - he was intermittently wrong some days in front and some days behind - I booked him in for his 2nd workup and he was nerve blocked from stifles to fetlocks with nothing making a difference - the vet asked a passerby pro to sit on him and he went marginally better so vets advice was to send pony to pro for a while to sort it out!!!

I did not take the vets advice again and got on with it myself and worked him in a more forward manner which did help but something still was not right as I had got to the point of having had enough and not understanding how a little used 5yr old could be so wrong I booked a week in Ireland to go pony shopping!!

It had got so wet in the field and his grazing track was a mud bath I opened the field up completely to let him graze ad lib whilst I was away - less than 6 hours after I had let him graze adlib he was in such a sorry state - very obviously bloated, pawing the ground, covered in hives and looking twice the size he had looked that morning - this included his legs, face, torso - his eyes were so swollen and weeping I decided as a last resort I would remove him from grass totally - this was last November - he now lives in a open yard with an open stable with rubber matting and straw bedding and does very well on soaked hay 3/4 times a day - the turnaround is unbelievable, he is jolly, his eyes don't run, there isn't any oedema anywhere - where as before he had wind galls, puffy legs and even lumps on his spine despite many saddle fitters and saddles and again 95% sound! We have been out doing jumping clinics and competing in low level dressage comps its all been good until early this week when I stopped soaking hay as it was so cold the hay nets were freezing which I did not think was good for his tummy.
On Monday we went for what had recently become a normal a canter on some wet ground no issues everything was fine, I actually thought he is really starting to learn to hold himself in this ground, that evening his hind end joints had really filled and he was 5/10 lame again behind on that same old right hind that has been troublesome for nearly 2 years with no obvious reason apart from a bit of swelling like a windgall - well I finally admitted to myself it must be suspensory issues as what else could it be, his future didn't look promising and to make sure it looked obvious for the vet to see I worked him in the school yesterday and cantered him the same way today in the wet conditions and tonight do you know what his legs look fine - tight with no heat , the only difference is I have soaked his hay - it sounds absolutely crackers - as anyone ever had such an animal - he has tested negative for Cushing's, that and all his other blood tests are fine so my thoughts now are its definitely a sugar issue and I suspect Insulin resistance is a probability - I am sorry this is so long winded but it has been a massive saga and has cost me a fortune - sadly I hadn't insured him so its all out of my own pocket :(

As anyone else had any thing any where near similar to this?

S X

Coffee, Wine and chocolates if you managed to decipher some of that!! XX
 
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Have you considered muscle myopathies such as PSSM? What you've described aren't classic symptoms but sensitivity to sugar and starch is the main issue these horses face. Worth a Google to consider it anyway.
 
I am a firm believer that we should look to what we feed first when there is a horse problem, having learned from experience. I have never had the same problem as you are having atm but it sounds to me as if you need to soak his hay all the time. I would discuss the possible reasons for this with your vet.
 
I am a firm believer that we should look to what we feed first when there is a horse problem, having learned from experience. I have never had the same problem as you are having atm but it sounds to me as if you need to soak his hay all the time. I would discuss the possible reasons for this with your vet.

I agree but what I am afraid of the answer that the vet will give because as a pony rising 6 how can you manage an animal that can only survive on soaked hay in a grassless yard :(
 
lameness in right hind leg and hives and LGL can be symptoms of hind gut issues (amongst other things). Do a search on Hind Gut Acidosis or HGA both on here and the phoenixhorse forum if you are a member - plenty of information in both places. If it is HGA then the diet and lifestyle have to be carefully controlled but the ponies can lead a good life and enjoy their work. It won't be cheap in either money or time - I know I've got a HGA pony, but the results can be quite spectacular once everything is put in place. It can also take a while to sort everything out as the triggers are slightly different for each horse and depend upon their management and lifestyle. Discuss it with your vet.


being a connemara has he been tested for the hereditary hoof disease some of them have, can't remember what its called - the breed society will help with information on getting the test done.
 
Thank you - I have suspected HGA from the beginning and have treated him as such - Equi- sure and Succeed seem to have been helping him a lot - its all part of the jigsaw I have been trying to manage with him - it is all definitely gut related.


HWSD Is the Connemara genetic foot problem - his doesn't really relate to this as his feet are great - HWSD feet fall to pieces.
lameness in right hind leg and hives and LGL can be symptoms of hind gut issues (amongst other things). Do a search on Hind Gut Acidosis or HGA both on here and the phoenixhorse forum if you are a member - plenty of information in both places. If it is HGA then the diet and lifestyle have to be carefully controlled but the ponies can lead a good life and enjoy their work. It won't be cheap in either money or time - I know I've got a HGA pony, but the results can be quite spectacular once everything is put in place. It can also take a while to sort everything out as the triggers are slightly different for each horse and depend upon their management and lifestyle. Discuss it with your vet.


being a connemara has he been tested for the hereditary hoof disease some of them have, can't remember what its called - the breed society will help with information on getting the test done.
 
Thank you - I have suspected HGA from the beginning and have treated him as such - Equi- sure and Succeed seem to have been helping him a lot - its all part of the jigsaw I have been trying to manage with him - it is all definitely gut related.


HWSD Is the Connemara genetic foot problem - his doesn't really relate to this as his feet are great - HWSD feet fall to pieces.

My gut girl is on Equisure more or less permanently. Another thing that has helped a lot, though it may be a local thing, is a mycotoxin binder - she gets that and a top quality forage balancer supplement and ad-lib forage alone. We've found that we've had to look at every aspect of her routine - all the little incremental changes have added up to 'bigger' total - things like water source, hay analysis, keeping her back muscles warm, consistent exercise near-daily, thinking 'outside the box' on foot care (we allow her to self-trim but we do have the facilities and surfaces to do this). Also she needed to rehab her muscles from spending time carrying herself crooked so sports massage and a trainer who is red-hot on biomechanics has been a godsend.
it's taken some time and quite a lot of thinking but the reesults are worth it and you learn just so much. Good luck with your boy.

PS - mine does spend some time at grass, about half a day, the rest of the day in a sand school with hay. She has a little companion who shares her regime and they both appear very happy with this arrangement.
 
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I have managed a pony like this for a few years and I found the only way to keep him sound was grassless and soaked hay. Exactly the same as you, he started with lami when the weather went cold and for a long time I thought it was problems with his circulation when the cold weather set in, but it wasn't. It is because the sugars are less soluble in cold water and as mad as people thought i was, (they thought I was feeding him more because it was cold) once I started to soak in warm water the lami went. my pony was so sensitive that even a different bale of hay could set off an episode so I started him with the vets advice on a course of Metformin and I also replaced some of his soaked hay with the blue horsehage haylage which is safe for lamis. It was really hard work but worth it because he came completely sound for the last 4 years of his life. Sadly he was PTS last year aged 22. I know a lot of people have said that metformin is ineffective but it definitely stabilised my ponies laminitis. I also attended a seminar on ems and laminitis which went right into the detail of what happens within the foot and the laminae from the start of the problem and through the course of management. It was a breakthrough moment for me because I realised that some of the episodes where he went pottery and looked as though lami was coming back, was actually just the physical agitation of the already damaged laminae causing soreness and not any link to his diet. This could happen a good few weeks after the lami had supposedly settled eg after a bucking session in his turnout pen. So it helped me manage him by distinguishing periods of lameness caused by too much sugar and those caused by mechanical damage where he had inflamed his feet before they had properly healed, which takes a good couple of months at least after a lami episode.

These ponies are difficult to manage but once you identify all the triggers and get them into a consistent regime they can come right. This was my experience which I'm sure will be different to others but I hope it might help you.
 
I agree but what I am afraid of the answer that the vet will give because as a pony rising 6 how can you manage an animal that can only survive on soaked hay in a grassless yard :(

quite easily, mine has been in that situation for years. He would have had cushings at around 6 (based on symptoms) but was not even diagnosed by test at 14. All his problems, similar to yours in a way (but not necessarily your problem) were due to cushings. All his hay is soaked. One day we had a new lot of hay. Everyone was fine and perfectly rideable. On just one day's different hay he went mad, totally unrideable, he was out of his skull. Sugar overload. It doesn't take much. I expect by soaking you are washing sugars out which even if only a little bit is making the hay suitable.

I am afraid I haven't found vets very helpful in these sort of situations. It really is a case of constantly adjusting your management until you get perfection.

Don't forget that if your horse is living off grass and on hay he will need adequate doses of high quality natural vitamin E to replace what he is not getting in the grass, plus salt and a decent supplement (unless the hay has been tested and provides all his mineral requirements. If you have a constant supply of hay you could test (D & H do it cheaply) to get some idea of the sugar/starch levels. That may give you a clue as to why he was so affected by dry hay.
 
Thank you all so much for your input - at least mine isn't the only special needs!!!
paddy555 how much extra vitamin e will he need - I have him on a pro earth - pro -balance which typically contains - 50g (1 scoop) of Pro Balance + contains:



175 mg Copper (chelate of amino acids Hydrate)

525 mg Zinc (chelate of amino acids Hydrate)

6 g Magnesium (magnesium oxide)

1500 mg Methionine

10 mg Biotin

5000 mg Lysine

1000 mg Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate)

0.75 mg Selenium (Organic selenium S.cerevisiae)

2.5 g Phosphorus (Monosodium Phosphate)


Would that be enough or should I top up?
 
Catkin thank you - I have been perusing Phoenix and its quite enlightening! Which binder would you recommend - is the cattle one the same product? Does the litmus test work?




My gut girl is on Equisure more or less permanently. Another thing that has helped a lot, though it may be a local thing, is a mycotoxin binder - she gets that and a top quality forage balancer supplement and ad-lib forage alone. We've found that we've had to look at every aspect of her routine - all the little incremental changes have added up to 'bigger' total - things like water source, hay analysis, keeping her back muscles warm, consistent exercise near-daily, thinking 'outside the box' on foot care (we allow her to self-trim but we do have the facilities and surfaces to do this). Also she needed to rehab her muscles from spending time carrying herself crooked so sports massage and a trainer who is red-hot on biomechanics has been a godsend.
it's taken some time and quite a lot of thinking but the reesults are worth it and you learn just so much. Good luck with your boy.

PS - mine does spend some time at grass, about half a day, the rest of the day in a sand school with hay. She has a little companion who shares her regime and they both appear very happy with this arrangement.
 
Thank you all so much for your input - at least mine isn't the only special needs!!!
paddy555 how much extra vitamin e will he need - I have him on a pro earth - pro -balance which typically contains - 50g (1 scoop) of Pro Balance + contains:



175 mg Copper (chelate of amino acids Hydrate)

525 mg Zinc (chelate of amino acids Hydrate)

6 g Magnesium (magnesium oxide)

1500 mg Methionine

10 mg Biotin

5000 mg Lysine

1000 mg Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate)

0.75 mg Selenium (Organic selenium S.cerevisiae)

2.5 g Phosphorus (Monosodium Phosphate)


Would that be enough or should I top up?

in theory but I found it wasn't in practice. My supplement (equimins) had about 1330iu but it was not enough nor I suspect is the quality of vit E in supplements good enough.
If he was mine then for the winter (grass or not, there is no vit E in grass Nov -Mar and very little in Oct) I would start on 5000iu of natural vit E oil (I use equimins which is the cheapest and the best) I would split that between 2 doses daily if you can and do that for around 3 months so you know he is up to speed on vit E. Then I would drop it to around 3000iu as a maintenance dose (plus your supplement) for an off grass or on track horse. They need several hours a day of good grazing in summer to get sufficient vit E from grass which I doubt yours will get.
 
Paddy you are a legend thank you!

It will be interesting to see how he goes now as we have run out of Succeed which he has been on for the last 9 months and I am going to try him without to see if it makes any difference - I hope not as that is one expensive supplement even if you buy the big economy pack!!
 
I have just ordered the equimins oil - how do you feed it accurately?

in theory but I found it wasn't in practice. My supplement (equimins) had about 1330iu but it was not enough nor I suspect is the quality of vit E in supplements good enough.
If he was mine then for the winter (grass or not, there is no vit E in grass Nov -Mar and very little in Oct) I would start on 5000iu of natural vit E oil (I use equimins which is the cheapest and the best) I would split that between 2 doses daily if you can and do that for around 3 months so you know he is up to speed on vit E. Then I would drop it to around 3000iu as a maintenance dose (plus your supplement) for an off grass or on track horse. They need several hours a day of good grazing in summer to get sufficient vit E from grass which I doubt yours will get.
 
I have just ordered the equimins oil - how do you feed it accurately?

You can either add it to feed or as I do (as it is expensive) you can feed it separately. I put it into a small sandwich so there is no wastage.
There are 2 ways of dispensing it. It is thick and not the easiest. I pour it into a heinz squeezy ketchup bottle. That tames it and I then squeeze it onto the sandwich. I put the bread on gram scales to weigh the correct amount.

1ml = 1000iu = 1gram.

The other way is to decant some into a container and draw it up into a syringe and then squeeze out 5 ml. If you draw up a full syringe you can sqeeze out what you need each time. I found it quite hard to syringe as it is thick.
 
Thanks I appreciate the help and knowledge!!!

You can either add it to feed or as I do (as it is expensive) you can feed it separately. I put it into a small sandwich so there is no wastage.
There are 2 ways of dispensing it. It is thick and not the easiest. I pour it into a heinz squeezy ketchup bottle. That tames it and I then squeeze it onto the sandwich. I put the bread on gram scales to weigh the correct amount.

1ml = 1000iu = 1gram.

The other way is to decant some into a container and draw it up into a syringe and then squeeze out 5 ml. If you draw up a full syringe you can sqeeze out what you need each time. I found it quite hard to syringe as it is thick.
 
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