insurance and vetting confusion

[dottylottie]

okay so confession time…even though i said i would be looking for a finer, sporty type gelding from march/april, i’ve viewed and booked a vetting for a section d mare?

she’s slightly pigeon toed, which i suspected before i viewed, but she’s also due the farrier and i’ve seen photos/videos that when she’s trimmed on time it’s nowhere near as noticeable - im having her vetted anyway so nothing else comes up. Obviously i’m aware that the pigeon toes comes from the leg itself, not just the hoof, so the issue will never go away.

Because of her value, i can insure her without a vetting, i just can’t insure for permanent loss of use - a risk im willing to take because it’s an amount i can “afford” to lose.

however, the insurance companies say if i’ve had a vetting done it has to be sent in regardless, but this would likely mean that the front legs are excluded - NOT a risk im willing to take lol.

so i’m wondering a) how would they know i’ve had one done at all?!
b) can i take out catastrophe cover to cover her for anything that happens during transport etc, then take out the insurance without the permanent loss of use once the vetting certificate expires after 14 days?

Alternatively, i could wait until i’ve owned her 6 months to insure her without a vetting and provide all history from my vet, and rely on savings to cover anything that happens in this time.

To add, i took someone experienced with me who i trust, who has agreed that for what i want, the pigeon toes are mild enough that the risk is low and it’s worth insuring without loss of use.

 

[maya2008]

I don’t think NFU would exclude the whole legs, just anything linked to the pigeon toes. You could ring and ask?

 

[SilverLinings]

If you have a vetting done and don't inform the insurance company then you will be committing fraud. Aside from being a criminal offence, if you are caught this could cause you serious problems if you ever need to take out any kind of insurance (e.g. car insurance, home insurance) again.

It might be possible to ask your vet to assess the horse but not 'vet' it formally, but you would have to speak to the vet about whether that would be something they are allowed to do/comfortable doing, as it could be argued that doing so is an attempt to withhold information from the insurance firm.

I understand that it seems unfair that they will insure the horse without a vetting but if you are sensible and have a vetting it could be used to put exclusions on your policy. As you say that the purchase price is a sum you could afford to loose, would it be better for you if instead of insuring you put the premium amount into a savings account every month to build up an emergency fund? Although I get that you would need to be able to fund a big bill if there was a problem before the amount in the account had built up.

Good luck with the horse, I hope that what ever you decide you end up with a healthy horse who's just right for you

 

[Mouse19]

As @SilverLinings said you need to inform the insurance company.

I think NFU would take a more pragmatic view of things exclusion wise. As mentioned above.

Also, I’m not sure if you are aware re LOU but an experience I had with LOU and KBIS was I purchased a horse and decided to get LOU cover as the horse was an expensive purchase.
I got a quote from KBIS and NFU. KBIS was considerably cheaper but turned into a right mess.
Through miscommunication KBIS decided nearly 3 months after the vetting and reviewing the x-rays (they claimed not to have been able to open the images, didn’t tell me but contacted the vet who did the vetting. The first I knew about it was then sending me an email saying I wasn’t covered). KBIS decided that none of the x-rays fell within their ‘limits of acceptance’ despite the horse having satisfied the vet who vetted it and is one of the top vets in the country. To add insult to injury they said that they would not cover these areas for injury or any medical condition- so neck, back, hocks and feet excluded.

I was understandably very upset and worried that the horse should not have passed a vetting, I paid for my own vet to review the x-rays who said they were all good for a horse of his age. KBIS claimed that their underwriters were very strict on x-rays and if I want LOU cover it is my prerogative to make sure that x-rays are approved BEFORE purchase. Which can take them 7-10 days Upon receiving the images. I can’t see any seller being ok with this personally.

I cancelled my policy and To make matters worse I couldn’t use the vetting of paid for (circa £800) for any other insurance company as it was then over 30 days old ?.
I spoke to NFU who said they would want a new vetting and they would want the previous vetting and the x-rays even though I wasn’t going for LOU with them.

So in short insurance is a minefield but be aware of what you are signing up to and read the small print.

 

[2 Dragons]

My Section C mare is also slightly pigeon toed. The vet pointed this out at her vetting but wrote that it wouldn't be a problem for her intended use as an all-rounder family pony. The only exclusion we had was for problems relating to being pigeon-toed.
That was 10 years ago and there have been no problems with her front legs

 

[dottylottie]

If you have a vetting done and don't inform the insurance company then you will be committing fraud. Aside from being a criminal offence, if you are caught this could cause you serious problems if you ever need to take out any kind of insurance (e.g. car insurance, home insurance) again.

It might be possible to ask your vet to assess the horse but not 'vet' it formally, but you would have to speak to the vet about whether that would be something they are allowed to do/comfortable doing, as it could be argued that doing so is an attempt to withhold information from the insurance firm.

I understand that it seems unfair that they will insure the horse without a vetting but if you are sensible and have a vetting it could be used to put exclusions on your policy. As you say that the purchase price is a sum you could afford to loose, would it be better for you if instead of insuring you put the premium amount into a savings account every month to build up an emergency fund? Although I get that you would need to be able to fund a big bill if there was a problem before the amount in the account had built up.

Good luck with the horse, I hope that what ever you decide you end up with a healthy horse who's just right for you

thankyou, i very naively didn’t think of it in those terms - i’m definitely not eager to commit fraud lol. now that you’ve said it, it makes perfect sense that they’d require you to not withhold info that would change the policy, and doing so is very much not legal. if i insure for the first year and take the risk with the exclusions, will another company request the details of this or will they ask for my vet history? i’m guessing it’ll be both. Alternatively, if i choose not to insure for say a year, and then insure for something that doesn’t require a vetting certificate will i be required to send them any i’ve had done, even if they’re expired?

i don’t want to put any vet in that position of being deliberately deceitful.

 

[dottylottie]

As @SilverLinings said you need to inform the insurance company.

I think NFU would take a more pragmatic view of things exclusion wise. As mentioned above.

Also, I’m not sure if you are aware re LOU but an experience I had with LOU and KBIS was I purchased a horse and decided to get LOU cover as the horse was an expensive purchase.
I got a quote from KBIS and NFU. KBIS was considerably cheaper but turned into a right mess.
Through miscommunication KBIS decided nearly 3 months after the vetting and reviewing the x-rays (they claimed not to have been able to open the images, didn’t tell me but contacted the vet who did the vetting. The first I knew about it was then sending me an email saying I wasn’t covered). KBIS decided that none of the x-rays fell within their ‘limits of acceptance’ despite the horse having satisfied the vet who vetted it and is one of the top vets in the country. To add insult to injury they said that they would not cover these areas for injury or any medical condition- so neck, back, hocks and feet excluded.

I was understandably very upset and worried that the horse should not have passed a vetting, I paid for my own vet to review the x-rays who said they were all good for a horse of his age. KBIS claimed that their underwriters were very strict on x-rays and if I want LOU cover it is my prerogative to make sure that x-rays are approved BEFORE purchase. Which can take them 7-10 days Upon receiving the images. I can’t see any seller being ok with this personally.

I cancelled my policy and To make matters worse I couldn’t use the vetting of paid for (circa £800) for any other insurance company as it was then over 30 days old ?.
I spoke to NFU who said they would want a new vetting and they would want the previous vetting and the x-rays even though I wasn’t going for LOU with them.

So in short insurance is a minefield but be aware of what you are signing up to and read the small print.

good grief, what a faff they put you through! i’d been looking at KBIS, i don’t think i’ll bother anymore!

 

[Mouse19]

good grief, what a faff they put you through! i’d been looking at KBIS, i don’t think i’ll bother anymore!

I’m sure lots of other people have positive experiences with KBIS. Maybe I was unlucky but definitely go in eyes open

 

[Sossigpoker]

What some people do is use one vet for vetting and another vet for actual vet care. Not saying it's right or wrong , just what some people do.

I'm currently in dispute with KBIS as 5 months after renewing my policy , they added loads of exclusions due to an ongoing claim from the previous policy year - leaving most of the horse excluded. I've cancelled my policy but I'm now going through their complaints procedure, asking for the 5 months premiums back.

 

[ihatework]

Make sure she has her feet done before you send a vet in, minimise the chance of comments.
You might be fine without a blanket exclusion depending on the extent of the pigeon toes - it’s not automatically a not suitable for purpose finding.
But given she has them I would want a soft and hard circle evaluation from a vet.

 

[SilverLinings]

if i insure for the first year and take the risk with the exclusions, will another company request the details of this or will they ask for my vet history? i’m guessing it’ll be both. Alternatively, if i choose not to insure for say a year, and then insure for something that doesn’t require a vetting certificate will i be required to send them any i’ve had done, even if they’re expired?

i don’t want to put any vet in that position of being deliberately deceitful.

When I've changed company in the past I've been asked for the horse's history from my vet and also whether I've previously made any claims for that animal, but I wasn't asked to provide details of what I was previously insured for, or for a copy of the original vetting. I don't know whether that is the same for all companies though, and these days I only insure for LOU and vets fees for the first year after purchase (in case the horse turns out to be a money pit!) and after that I just insure for 3rd party as I can afford to cover vets bills.

As other posters have said, it might be worth you speaking to a few companies about how they'd view pigeon toes being shown on a vetting cert. before you buy. Insurance is good when it works but can be a minefield.