Insurance/ vet question

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NellRosk

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My bf horse has been footy for a good 6 months now and more needs to be done to see why his feet are in such terrible nick. I want to get his fronts xrayed and bloods taken for cushings/ ems but I'm worried how to get round my vet. I know if I request these he will tell me to (as he's told me before) get shoes put on. How do I get round this, do I just insist that he does them? And will insurance pay out for these if my vet is not in agreement with me that it needs doing? I thought they needed a vet report. Failing that how much will front X-days and blood tests cost?

Thoughts/ advice appreciated!
 
I am constantly amazed by the efforts to which some clients will go to in order to avoid shoeing their horse. It does seem to have taken on what can only be described as a religious quality. In some instances it seems that clients would rather have a barefoot horse that cannot be ridden than admit defeat stick some shoes on and ride their horse!

There is no doubt that some horses cope very well without shoes, but some don't. The reasons behind this are likely multiple and complex but most horse vets will have a small collection of devotees who insist that they are still in 'transition' as it their once sound horse hobbles across the yard several months (or years) after the removal of shoes.

If your vet has any sense he will simply accede to your request and trouser the money but by the sounds of things he has your horse's interests at heart and will try and return your (lame for six months) horse to soundness.
 
change vets, testing for cushings and ems should be first port of call if previously comfortable horse is now sore (assuming horse was ok prior to this), tell vet you want full investigation or even request a referral
 
stranger1612 said:
I am constantly amazed by the efforts to which some clients will go to in order to avoid shoeing their horse. It does seem to have taken on what can only be described as a religious quality. In some instances it seems that clients would rather have a barefoot horse that cannot be ridden than admit defeat stick some shoes on and ride their horse!

There is no doubt that some horses cope very well without shoes, but some don't. The reasons behind this are likely multiple and complex but most horse vets will have a small collection of devotees who insist that they are still in 'transition' as it their once sound horse hobbles across the yard several months (or years) after the removal of shoes.

If your vet has any sense he will simply accede to your request and trouser the money but by the sounds of things he has your horse's interests at heart and will try and return your (lame for six months) horse to soundness.
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Thank you for your input, I had his shoes removed to help his arthritis and reduce concussion (although I shouldn't have to justify myself to you). His hind hooves are wonderful, perfect shape, rock crunching and self trimming. However his fronts are a little more complex, they're a different shape and look like they belong on a different horse if I'm honest. I feel it would be somewhat irresponsible of me to shoe him when I don't know what I'm dealing with. Yes I could stick shoes on him and he'd be sound but he could the beginnings of cushings, his pedal bones could have dropped etc and I'd just be masking the problem by shoeing him. Not to mention his hideously contracted heels (which were caused by shoeing) would probably be made a whole lot worse by putting shoes back on. But thanks for pointing out that my vet had my horse's best interests at heart and implying that I don't. :)
 
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twiggy2 said:
change vets, testing for cushings and ems should be first port of call if previously comfortable horse is now sore (assuming horse was ok prior to this), tell vet you want full investigation or even request a referral
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No he's always been footy on his fronts since I had his shoes removed :( backs are a completely different story he transitioned fine with them, he's 15 though so definitely of an age where cushings is likely. Oh and he spent the good first half of his life (before I got him) hideously overweight so ems also a strong possibility.
 
NellRosk said:
Thank you for your input, I had his shoes removed to help his arthritis and reduce concussion (although I shouldn't have to justify myself to you). His hind hooves are wonderful, perfect shape, rock crunching and self trimming. However his fronts are a little more complex, they're a different shape and look like they belong on a different horse if I'm honest. I feel it would be somewhat irresponsible of me to shoe him when I don't know what I'm dealing with. Yes I could stick shoes on him and he'd be sound but he could the beginnings of cushings, his pedal bones could have dropped etc and I'd just be masking the problem by shoeing him. Not to mention his hideously contracted heels (which were caused by shoeing) would probably be made a whole lot worse by putting shoes back on. But thanks for pointing out that my vet had my horse's best interests at heart and implying that I don't. :)
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Well said.

Sorry no advice from me, but well done for not just banging a set of shoes on and pretending everything is great.
 
NellRosk said:
No he's always been footy on his fronts since I had his shoes removed :( backs are a completely different story he transitioned fine with them, he's 15 though so definitely of an age where cushings is likely. Oh and he spent the good first half of his life (before I got him) hideously overweight so ems also a strong possibility.
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Have you tried boots? Did they make any difference?
 
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Diddleydoo said:
Well said.

Sorry no advice from me, but well done for not just banging a set of shoes on and pretending everything is great.
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Thanks :) That's my point exactly, I want to know what the issue is because for all I know shoeing could just make it worse.

Diddleydoo said:
Have you tried boots? Do/did they make any difference?
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Yeah I always hack with (front) boots. They make a massive difference, he really strides out in them. In the arena I ride him without boots and he's sound too, however not as comfortable as when he has the boots on (he strides out like he used to when he was shod, in the boots his movement is a lot bigger if that makes sense!)
 
NellRosk said:
Thanks :) That's my point exactly, I want to know what the issue is because for all I know shoeing could just make it worse.



Yeah I always hack with (front) boots. They make a massive difference, he really strides out in them. In the arena I ride him without boots and he's sound too, however not as comfortable as when he has the boots on (he strides out like he used to when he was shod, in the boots his movement is a lot bigger if that makes sense!)
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What surface is your arena?

Is he footy over more difficult surfaces in hand too?

Is he landing heel first, could it be heel pain?

Sorry none of this is helping with your original questions.
 
Diddleydoo said:
What surface is your arena?

Is he footy over more difficult surfaces in hand too?

Is he landing heel first, could it be heel pain?

Sorry none of this is helping with your original questions.
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No I appreciate the questions! :)

The surface is sand and rubber.

He is yeah.

He lands heel first in boots, but not without.

I've treated for thrush and he's on a really high spec mineral supplement (forage plus winter balancer) which leads me to think there's something else going on.
 
if the horse is lame it is your vets job to find out why, if your vet is not happy to do that then it really is time to change your vet-hiding the symptoms is not an answer. However if your vet was right and the investigations found the horse is lame due purely to being foot sore then you insurance company could possibly riggle out of paying depending how you vet words their notes. so I really would change vets-you want you vet to fight for you and your horse not against you
 
twiggy2 said:
if the horse is lame it is your vets job to find out why, if your vet is not happy to do that then it really is time to change your vet-hiding the symptoms is not an answer. However if your vet was right and the investigations found the horse is lame due purely to being foot sore then you insurance company could possibly riggle out of paying depending how you vet words their notes. so I really would change vets-you want you vet to fight for you and your horse not against you
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I believe I've done everything for this horse and his footiness is due to something else. I have another horse bf and she's great, been hunting this season etc all without boots. Thanks for the input :)
 
Sounds madness to me, save your money ( bet the insurance won't pay even if you change vets they will insist in a copy of the full history your previous vets hold ) put some shoes on!

If there's something else wrong with the horse it will still show even with those evil things called shoes on, and you will then have the financial support of the insurance to fund further investigations.

All horses are different just because you have another horse that copes barefoot does not mean they all will !
 
lannerch said:
Sounds madness to me, save your money ( bet the insurance won't pay even if you change vets they will insist in a copy of the full history your previous vets hold ) put some shoes on!

If there's something else wrong with the horse it will still show even with those evil things called shoes on, and you will then have the financial support of the insurance to fund further investigations.

All horses are different just because you have another horse that copes barefoot does not mean they all will !
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often putting shoes on can allow a condition to deteriorate further whilst the horse appears sound, I am with OP on this the underlying cause of lameness needs to be confirmed, if it is foot sore then things need to be reviewed, if there is a problem with the internal structure of the hoof then the cause needs tobe rectified and often shoes are not the way forward
 
The thing is, if he is sound in boots and you're happy working in then it doesn't seem that there is anything worth investigating? Either always ride him in boots or put shoe on the fronts. I'm pretty sure the vet and insurance company will see it that way too- your horse isnt lame when his feet are supported by boots/ shoes
 
TheMule said:
The thing is, if he is sound in boots and you're happy working in then it doesn't seem that there is anything worth investigating? Either always ride him in boots or put shoe on the fronts. I'm pretty sure the vet and insurance company will see it that way too- your horse isnt lame when his feet are supported by boots/ shoes
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I'm just worried that he shouldn't still be footy after this length of time? And there's some other factor involved. I don't know, I'll have an informal chat to the vet next time he's out
 
I am really amazed that it's considered ok by anyone for a horse to left lame for six months .
Is he lame in the field or just ridden ?
What happens when you lead him on different surfaces .
Some horses do great BF some do less well these may well be best in shoes with shoeing breaks when not ridden or worked lightly .
I would worry about working a horse long term in boots if he's not landing heel first in them.( this is an issue with boots IME they sometimes adjust the break over in not a very good way .)
What does the hoof care professional ( farrier or trimmer ) have to say about the situation .
I think if you ask for the front feet to be xrayed it will cost around £200.( I often get a set just after I have bought a horse so I know where we started in the future )
I don't think the insurance will pay and you are storing up a problem for the future if you need to claim .
What is the horses reaction to testing with hoof testers ?
Does he show sole pain ? pain across his heels ?
Can you depress his soles by pressing hard with your thumbs .
This sort of thing is one of the big reasons I don't insure .
In the meantime you need to find the best farrier in the area so find out who that is .you need to study and learn in detail about good shoeing so you understand exactly want you are looking for should you decide to shoe the horse .

Having horses BF is great all mine work some of the time without shoes but if the horse is lame it's just not fair .
 
GS - fine in field/ school/ smooth tarmac. Doesn't enjoy anything stony/ rocky.

I'd say he's landing heel first in his boots (or at a push 'flat') but he's not landing toe first.

Farrier just casts an eye over 8 weeks or so, rate of growth has slowed considerably over winter. He just says if I want to work him on the road without boots then he needs shoes, which I know.

I could stretch to £200, I'm in the process of thinking of cancelling my insurance anyway. Paying a ridiculous amount for 3 horses every month for very little benefit!

He hasn't had hoof testers on but you can't press his sole down with a thumb so they're not excessively thin.

I know, I successfully hunt another horse bf and I had his shoes taken off with his interests at heart. Even if I do put shoes back on in the future (which is probable if I want to hunt him next season) I don't believe I should whilst his feet are like this.
 
twiggy2 said:
often putting shoes on can allow a condition to deteriorate further whilst the horse appears sound, I am with OP on this the underlying cause of lameness needs to be confirmed, if it is foot sore then things need to be reviewed, if there is a problem with the internal structure of the hoof then the cause needs tobe rectified and often shoes are not the way forward
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Thanks, these are my views exactly. Especially with his under run heels I can't imagine any kind of shoeing that would help these!
 
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