Interesting Article on BE and falls

Thanks for posting, that's very interesting. I make no claims to be an expert, I'm only a spectator but I have thought for a long time that perhaps with the increased importance of dressage current horses are just too obedient to refuse when the approach to a jump is wrong.
 
A very interesting read. I'm only a spectator but for a few years now I've felt that event horses are losing the ability to think for themselves.
 
I liked it as I relate to when I was a teen, and went hunting and team chasing, and would kick on down to any old fence. We used to make courses at our yard, and include banks and ditches, really steep banks too, to upright fences. Our hacking included fittening the old fashioned way, with 20 minutes solid canter workouts, on embankments.

I don't remember many missed strides those days, it was indeed about teaching the horse to be surefooted, and about riding forward in balance.

These days I am more arena bound, and my horses more obedient. I end up trying to second guess strides. Often my guess is wrong, even the second one!

I have put it down to age, but now wonder if a return to the carefree days of bank scrambling etc is the way to go.
 
I have read this before, and totally agree with it.

Remember Priceless, that never had a cross country fault? He spent his 4/5 year old winter hunting on Exmoor, not jumping fences, but galloping over varying ground and scrambling through streams. Ginny Elliot of course schooled him well later, but he learned to look after himself first. I had an excellent instructor once who said that whatever riding you did, from racing, through dressage, show jumping, cross country, western, polo, etc. etc. the vital thing is to have the horse in balance.
 
I have to say, I'd always rather have a horse I can trust to get me out of a sticky spot than one that will be utterly push-button, and I don't even event - the most I'm likely to get up to is some good fast hacks and maybe some hunting over relatively tame country (I am not the world's bravest rider, unfortunately).

The comment about the Look of Eagles is a very good one - I have known several, and whilst none of them could ever be accused of being easy, neither do they tend to get into much trouble across uneven ground. Both these qualities are probably because they have opinions of their own about how things should be done.
 
I don't know if any of you follow Lissa Green on social media. She has just talked about one of hers at Withington I think it was. She has had to take the mare back a bit in order to teach her to balance her self and it is now starting to come right again. I think we have a lot of riders who hold their horses together so much the horse is utterly reliant on them, and then if they get it wrong, the horse can't find that fifth leg. Michael Jung's round at Rolex was a good example of forward riding with a light contact and in balance, and although there were a couple of slight misses the horse was very quick to sort it out. Oh that we could all ride like him, of course!
 
I've got a lovely old showjumping training book by an old master and I love reading his intro. He complains about how the higher you go in dressage the more the horse relies on the rider to tell them what to do - to the detriment of their jumping. He wants a horse that can work in balance and listens but doesn't rely and only then will you have a horse that can jump and event by itself. The more you train the horse to dressage the more you remove the ability and desire to think for itself. Fab intro to a wonderful book. And I think it holds very true.
I teach my riders and horses to work their way around a course but to set the horse up further away and let them make their own mistakes. Don't try and fix anything closer than 3 strides. If they can make the mistake they learn, and the rider gets more confident in their security and ability to continue after a mistake. Inevitably the horse at the end if a session is jumping better and the rider fussing less and I always got good feedback from clinics after they tackled an event.
It's that ability for trusting that the horse can sort itself out that has diminished I think which has led to overriding and dependence on that - quite one sided and leaves you without backup if you ride it wrong!
 
I agree. There are more and more horses, particularly at grassroots, whose riders are obsessed with seeing the stride and dictating to the horse exactly where it should put its feet. As soon as the rider messes up (e.g. left behind/out of balance), horse stops as it's not sure what do to.

My instructor tells me, and I tell my sister when walking her courses with her, you ride the canter and the line. Let the horse do the jumping.
 
Lissa Green would say this as this is what her mother (Lucinda Green of course) is always saying in ALL her training. She has resolutely maintained that a good XC horse must have the ability to think for itself to a degree and have that 5th leg. She interviewed Michael Jung a few years ago for H&H and his approach was actually all about completely controlling his horse at all times. Lucinda Greens point was that there were very few riders who could ride like that and while taking nothing away from the supremo that is Michael Jung, it wasn't a practical way for most riders to go. She was in favour of regularly schooling over XC fences and different terrain as well to ensure the horse is always used to this. Makes sense to me and something I do attempt to follow with.. seeing as I am no Michael Jung!
 
Luci07 said:
She interviewed Michael Jung a few years ago for H&H and his approach was actually all about completely controlling his horse at all times.
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This is very interesting to hear - I suppose it's two sides of the same coin, in the sense that although a good XC horse should of course know what it's doing without too much rider input, if the rider does say something then the horse must react immediately. E.g. horse jumps in short but they haven't walked the course and can't tell how wide the out element is - rider puts leg on, horse must go immediately, no stopping to think/arguing.

My horse gets very annoyed with me if I try to have too much input over what he considers straightforward fences, to the point that if he feels I'm interfering he just sods off and stops listening entirely :D
I had to learn a new style of riding where I refrain from doing much unless it's really needed - but if I do tell him to wait/go/turn, he MUST do it then. It's a work in progress, I'm no Michael Jung either. Definitely not good enough to be in charge all the time :)
 
It's a good article ,well expressed.
I feel the emphasis on skinnys and jumping them at acute angles and off tight turns has changed the way XC horses are being trained .
I think horses can get mentally exhausted by doing this repeatedly and then they make mistakes but not necessarily at that type of fence .
 
I am in agreement and also see some shortcomings of nouveau techniques too..

The thing is, I don't agree it's about the dressage itself, I feel it's how dressage may have changed, obsessed with certain techniques and overly tight nosebands.

The horse will fear reprimand of the smallest kind if taught to in the arena...

Out on the course or jumping ring, it will translate. The fear will still be there. I see overbent horses literally everywhere nowadays as it seems to be how they are taught to go... looking down at the ground. Then expected to see it's own strides.
 
millikins said:
Thanks for posting, that's very interesting. I make no claims to be an expert, I'm only a spectator but I have thought for a long time that perhaps with the increased importance of dressage current horses are just too obedient to refuse when the approach to a jump is wrong.
Click to expand...

Supertrooper said:
A very interesting read. I'm only a spectator but for a few years now I've felt that event horses are losing the ability to think for themselves.
Click to expand...

Ditto both.

Red-1 said:
I liked it as I relate to when I was a teen, and went hunting and team chasing, and would kick on down to any old fence. We used to make courses at our yard, and include banks and ditches, really steep banks too, to upright fences. Our hacking included fittening the old fashioned way, with 20 minutes solid canter workouts, on embankments.

I don't remember many missed strides those days, it was indeed about teaching the horse to be surefooted, and about riding forward in balance.

These days I am more arena bound, and my horses more obedient. I end up trying to second guess strides. Often my guess is wrong, even the second one!

I have put it down to age, but now wonder if a return to the carefree days of bank scrambling etc is the way to go.
Click to expand...

Same. I also spent my youth hooning about - hunting, bloodhounding, team chasing, long, fast hacks on undulating, steep ground. I want a horse that pays attention to what's in front of it, looks where it's going and thinks for itself - a horse that looks after itself will look after you! I'd rather a horse stop than try to jump something it has no chance of getting over safely. Quite frankly I wouldn't have survived the things I used to get up to if I hadn't had such horses and ponies!

Goldenstar said:
It's a good article ,well expressed.
I feel the emphasis on skinnys and jumping them at acute angles and off tight turns has changed the way XC horses are being trained .
I think horses can get mentally exhausted by doing this repeatedly and then they make mistakes but not necessarily at that type of fence .
Click to expand...

Agree, and I think such fences have spoiled it, all these awkward fences, angels and distances makes a lot of it uncomfortable to watch now.
 
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The trouble is that the sport has changed. With the short format, the course has to have sufficient difficulty otherwise if it was straightforward with lots of big fences but little technical stuff, then the competition could turn into a dressage competition with jumping. Time was when a double clear round would get you into the rosettes almost regardless of the dressage.
 
Only watched a tiny bit of Badminton but reckon that the Vicarage Vee was a graphic example of the points made in this article. Those that jumped it well were bold horses ridden on an accurate line but with an attacking, forward stride. No fiddling, no adjusting at the last minute.
 
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