Dressage Interesting Article Written by a Retired International Judge on Whether Potential/Paces Should be Rewarded Over Correctness

[daffy44]

I think its an interesting article, and I totally agree that potential should not come into the marking of a GP test, if you want marks for potential then the Louisdor classes in Germany are where to go, classes for 8 to 10yr old potential GP horses, doing the short GP, not the full on grown up version. Personally I think 8yrs old is too young for any horse to be doing GP, let alone one as big moving as Jovian, horses with that amount of movement need so much strength to stabilise their bodies its simply impossible to have developed it that quickly. But given that the Worlds are in Denmark in a few weeks it seems obvious that Jovian is being pushed this way to try and make the Team, and in different year he may be more likely to be given more time to develop.

 

[stangs]

Personally I think 8yrs old is too young for any horse to be doing GP, let alone one as big moving as Jovian, horses with that amount of movement need so much strength to stabilise their bodies its simply impossible to have developed it that quickly.

Which raises the question: to ensure horses aren’t pushed through the levels too quickly, should there be higher minimum age restrictions on horses competing at GP?

 

[shortstuff99]

Lots if excellent replies here that I'm really enjoying!

What I thought was an interesting point in the article was the piaffe and the lack of difference between collected trot and passage. If a move is not conforming to the FEI definition and it is incorrect then it should be a 4 (or less) regardless of the quality of the paces etc.

I just worry that horses are going to be bred more and more extreme in order to create shortcuts in training.

 

[shortstuff99]

Which raises the question: to ensure horses aren’t pushed through the levels too quickly, should there be minimum age restrictions on horses competing at GP?

There is a minimum age, which is 8 years old. Maybe it should be raised to 10?

 

[stangs]

There is a minimum age, which is 8 years old. Maybe it should be raised to 10?

Yes, sorry, managed to forget the most important word in my sentence.

10/11 would seem sensible given that 8 isn’t doing horses any favours and given that horses are retiring later these days too.

 

[daffy44]

Exactly, 8 is the minimum age, which is slightly odd given that the minimum age for psg is 7, only one years difference, but a world of difference between the two levels.

I agree about the passagey trot, piaffe etc, I think its a potential problem when these flaws can be overcome in marking terms with massive paces. I dont doubt Jovian's ability, but its just way too soon, and the more collected movements expose his understandable weaknesses.

eta: I think 10 is a much better minimum age for GP

 

[shortstuff99]

I also think it is mad that there is only a year age difference between a PSG and GP.

Jovian is at the CDI4 * at Aachen tomorrow (a lot if international GPs in quick succession) so will be interesting to see how he goes there.

On a side point I judge working equitation and judges there are much more willing to give the whole range of marks from 2s to 10s which some dressage judges can seem afraid to do.

 

[daffy44]

Yes, I saw that he's at Aachen, he's targeting that Team place, and unlike some of the other potentials, he has no past International career marks, so I'm sure the selectors have a list of requirements for him.

 

[LEC]

I think the issue here is he is chasing a team spot, though when I read the report front which show the other horse he took, the mare actually did better but the focus was on Jovian.

I think it’s interesting even with CDJ how high the wastage is with the sport. Florentina hasn’t been seen since July at GP, I believe Freestyle has gone back to her owner, Valencia went to Amy Woodhead, horses like River Rise Nisa, MSJ Charmer, Hawtins San Floriana and River Rise Escala have all disappeared yet were all big winners at decent level. It’s a bit the same with eventing and Sjing, it’s a numbers game.

 

[tristar]

i was watching his grandsire [i think] about 12 years ago, olivi, nothing like jovis

jovis is a beautiful horse, but looks fragile, and does not move straight yet has exaggerated paces

his canter reminds me of old time show jumpers who were crossed with heavy horses

his piaffe may improve if the rider stopped jabbing him with the spurs and making him tense

judging a horse like this amongst others must be like showing classes, and an element of personal preference could
be a component

but its not showing, or is it, or is it becoming a kind of show, rather than a sport, if its even a sport?

ideally if it is about training then is training a sport, the guidelines are laid down yet still not clear to many in the judging interpretation or results

its kinda getting into its own realm, sort of isolating or evolving itself by the horses being bred and presented who are bred for certain traits and movement, yet at the same time the training had gone weird and to many eyes deteriorated

i think 12 years is the age for gp if only to take the pressure of the horses well and the riders and give both a chance to feel their way to higher levels in a more exploratory way, during which the horses have time to develop fully, and i mean FULLY

 

[sbloom]

I think it’s interesting even with CDJ how high the wastage is with the sport. .

Enough reason alone to reconsider what we're doing in this discipline, I know many will go to lower key homes, but how long do they last there? And many will retire lame, young. I'm sure there was a statistic that the average age at which sport horses were put down in Germany, a decade or more ago, was 7 years old. It might be that that was the average age of living sport horses, but that's bad enough in itself. We hate racing for its wastage, this isn't much better.

@tristar agree 100%. VERY few of these horses have movement patterns that aren't in some kind of compensation, as you say they're not straight, I don't believe DAP is a good thing and many have trailing hind legs, dropped TS and flashy in front.

 

[LEC]

Enough reason alone to reconsider what we're doing in this discipline, I know many will go to lower key homes, but how long do they last there? And many will retire lame, young. I'm sure there was a statistic that the average age at which sport horses were put down in Germany, a decade or more ago, was 7 years old. It might be that that was the average age of living sport horses, but that's bad enough in itself. We hate racing for its wastage, this isn't much better.

@tristar agree 100%. VERY few of these horses have movement patterns that aren't in some kind of compensation, as you say they're not straight, I don't believe DAP is a good thing and many have trailing hind legs, dropped TS and flashy in front.

It was KWPN but I CANNOT find that study from the 1990s anywhere now. They surmised that only something like 30% of horses made it to ridden and competition at 7.

 

[j1ffy]

I think the issue here is he is chasing a team spot, though when I read the report front which show the other horse he took, the mare actually did better but the focus was on Jovian.

I think it’s interesting even with CDJ how high the wastage is with the sport. Florentina hasn’t been seen since July at GP, I believe Freestyle has gone back to her owner, Valencia went to Amy Woodhead, horses like River Rise Nisa, MSJ Charmer, Hawtins San Floriana and River Rise Escala have all disappeared yet were all big winners at decent level. It’s a bit the same with eventing and Sjing, it’s a numbers game.

I find it interesting how CDJ is viewed as a 'kind' rider compared to many others, yet she is hungrier for wins than just about anyone else and will push for the scores - I recall a few interviews where she and Carl 'joke' about her always trying for a 10 even in training. That sort of drive will absolutely push a horse to the edge of its ability and result in more injuries (and don't get me wrong, I'd rather watch her ride than some of the others on the international circuit but let's not pretend that she's not placing stress on her horses just because she doesn't present them at shows behind the vertical or with excess flash from tension).

Compare that the CH who seems content to get a very good performance from a horse that reflects the level of training. There's a reason why she wins the individual medals and he doesn't.

This isn't a judgement by any means, all riders and competitors have different motivations.

 

[tristar]

if it was the german report, it was that the average age of horses sent to slaughter was 8 years
although there may be stats from other countries

 

[Orangehorse]

I think the issue here is he is chasing a team spot, though when I read the report front which show the other horse he took, the mare actually did better but the focus was on Jovian.

I think it’s interesting even with CDJ how high the wastage is with the sport. Florentina hasn’t been seen since July at GP, I believe Freestyle has gone back to her owner, Valencia went to Amy Woodhead, horses like River Rise Nisa, MSJ Charmer, Hawtins San Floriana and River Rise Escala have all disappeared yet were all big winners at decent level. It’s a bit the same with eventing and Sjing, it’s a numbers game.

There was a young mare that was winning everything not very long ago, next thing she is not in training but in foal.

 

[Orangehorse]

if it was the german report, it was that the average age of horses sent to slaughter was 8 years
although there may be stats from other countries

I know of some specialist dressage yards. From personal knowledge I have been surprised and concerned to hear how many dressage horses are PTS, there seems to be a steady, drip of numbers. "Untrainable" is the usual thing. One person took a chance on two of these, in fact one was in my trailer for transport and was a complete gem to handle. But the end was PTS. And another that ended the same way. A friend "rescued" one that was going to be PTS and she is quite a nervous rider, but took it away from an arena and took it hacking and a very happy few years. Another bucked so high it puts its rider in hospital and never rode again, was PTS so no one else got hurt.

Considering just how much a young dressage horse costs to buy it seems extraordinary that this happens.

Is it because a specialist dressage trainer doesn't want to have a "naughty horse" from their own yard?

 

[sbloom]

We train in way that ignores the horse's fundamental nature. We use aids to achieve the outcome we require, we get the outcome (bend, collection, lengthening, whatever) but we really don't pay attention to whether it is benefiting the horse overall, or is compounding other problems. So we layer new training over old, we ignore the small signs that we're causing compensation, and we end up with terribly compromised horses winning at the top levels, and those that are less stoic, less prepared to compensate, broken and sometimes dead way too soon.

We've got better at saying "pain or confusion" but, even as a saddle fitter I've only recently heard that a lot of bucking is because of nerve pain. Who knew?! Sure, we probably no longer beat the horse but we find ways around the problem, running the horse into canter, putting poles down, maybe even changing the saddle, but we don't fix the nerve pain so the horse learns to move in a different way that doesn't trigger it to such an extent. Sometimes I wish I didn't see/learn this stuff, it would be a lot easier.

 

[stangs]

"Untrainable" is the usual thing.

Unsurprising given that people keep breeding for everything but a good temperament, and training for everything but the animal's mental stability and the ability to regulate their emotions. Asking some of those horses to work without tension is like telling a person with depression to just cheer up.

 

[sbloom]

Unsurprising given that people keep breeding for everything but a good temperament, and training for everything but the animal's mental stability and the ability to regulate their emotions. Asking some of those horses to work without tension is like telling a person with depression to just cheer up.

But if we helped them with their bodies they'd be mentally much healthier of course...though yes, I agree, this thing of breeding a "professional's" horse with a hot temperament isn't going to help.

 

[Art Nouveau]

We've got better at saying "pain or confusion" but, even as a saddle fitter I've only recently heard that a lot of bucking is because of nerve pain. Who knew?!

Sometimes I wish I didn't see/learn this stuff, it would be a lot easier.

That's fascinating, and I'm glad you're learning this stuff and sharing it here. It means we can all look after our horses better at that they're happier, but also we're safer. I rode a lot of ponies that bucked as a child, but I don't want that for my children so the more knowledge I have about preventing bucking the better.

 

[ycbm]

There was a young mare that was winning everything not very long ago, next thing she is not in training but in foal.

Farouche? Stellar as a 4 and 5 year old, (I saw her several times live and she was mesmerising) but stopped competing at 7? I think, because she didn't stand up to it, but was bred from by embryo transfer while they tried to restart her a number of times before giving up. So her weaknesses have presumably, at least in part, have been passed on to her offspring.
.

 

[tristar]

I know of some specialist dressage yards. From personal knowledge I have been surprised and concerned to hear how many dressage horses are PTS, there seems to be a steady, drip of numbers. "Untrainable" is the usual thing. One person took a chance on two of these, in fact one was in my trailer for transport and was a complete gem to handle. But the end was PTS. And another that ended the same way. A friend "rescued" one that was going to be PTS and she is quite a nervous rider, but took it away from an arena and took it hacking and a very happy few years. Another bucked so high it puts its rider in hospital and never rode again, was PTS so no one else got hurt.

Considering just how much a young dressage horse costs to buy it seems extraordinary that this happens.

Is it because a specialist dressage trainer doesn't want to have a "naughty horse" from their own yard?

possibly the horses are not well started, then pressurized, then competing too young, doing their A levels before their 11 plus

also makes you wonder just how much some who produce these horses really know about real training, there seems to be a big hole in the system somewhere to lose so many so young

when it goes wrong blame the horse and call it untrainable

 

[daffy44]

[QUOTE="LEC

I think it’s interesting even with CDJ how high the wastage is with the sport. Florentina hasn’t been seen since July at GP, I believe Freestyle has gone back to her owner, Valencia went to Amy Woodhead, horses like River Rise Nisa, MSJ Charmer, Hawtins San Floriana and River Rise Escala have all disappeared yet were all big winners at decent level. It’s a bit the same with eventing and Sjing, it’s a numbers game.[/QUOTE]

LEC, I have no idea if you are right or wrong about all these horses, but i would be wary of making assumptions based purely on their BD records, of course if you have other information then I apologize. As an example I recall a horse of Carl's that was very talented, and competed up to either advanced medium or psg (I cant remember, sorry), but Carl felt the horse wasnt happy as a dressage horse and he gave it to an eventer, and I last saw it bounding very happily around its first BE Intermediate, so a happy, sound horse, but perhaps not what you would assume from just seeing its BD record.

@j1ffy, I couldnt agree with you more!

 

[teapot]

MSJ Freestyle hasn't been out BD or FEI in over a year, and I doubt she's popping round BE

There was speculation then something wasn't 100% because of course Gio went to Tokyo.

 

[daffy44]

MSJ Freestyle hasn't been out BD or FEI in over a year, and I doubt she's popping round BE

There was speculation then something wasn't 100% because of course Gio went to Tokyo.

I know Freestyle is back at Mount St John, I wasnt suggesting anything else but she is only one on quite a long list. I'm not suggesting they are all out eventing, just that the BE records dont always tell the whole story for every horse.

 

[RachelFerd]

Interesting comment from an FBHS I was having a lesson with today - tongue in cheek perhaps, but said that the German attitude was that anything 'untrainable' in Germany went into the food chain, whereas that's unacceptable here, so we try harder to train them (and may/may not succeed - delete as appropriate!)

 

[tristar]

p schoc is it lewitz? was breeding 1000 foals per annum at one point, and indicated anything that did not show promise was often packed off at 3 years

i`ve had horses that were frankly unpromising at 4 to 6 years and did not show their true talents until fully mature, one in particular who is now in his twenties and we call him the king, if i didn`t keep them either through laziness to sell, or kept them , because i just like them anyway, i would not have known such a thing was possible, taking a different road can teach you a lot

i would imagine a fair few of those horses called untrainable when young, are simply not ready for the demands put on them

i have one horse you could have happily strangled when young who is an angel now, and i just could not ever replace him


putting horses into a `system` does not always work, they are too individual, totilas was a good example when he went to germany, he was shouting at the new rider `you are doing it all wrong` but dear rider was not listening, it was enough to bring tears to your eyes, how blind and stupid people can be, but it was done that way because that is how one gets the marks

 

[LEC]

I know Freestyle is back at Mount St John, I wasnt suggesting anything else but she is only one on quite a long list. I'm not suggesting they are all out eventing, just that the BE records dont always tell the whole story for every horse.

No results don’t tell the whole story and they could be having a lovely life hacking or doing other stuff, I don’t think I have implied anything nefarious just that they have disappeared from competing but I think it’s a story we do not discuss enough and these were all prolific winners.

I know it’s all a numbers game, and the studbooks have the data, but we don’t want to discuss it as then it implies there are big problems and there is too much money invested in the machine carrying on (young horses, flashy auctions, breeding, elite level sport).

 

[daffy44]

No results don’t tell the whole story and they could be having a lovely life hacking or doing other stuff, I don’t think I have implied anything nefarious just that they have disappeared from competing but I think it’s a story we do not discuss enough and these were all prolific winners.

I know it’s all a numbers game, and the studbooks have the data, but we don’t want to discuss it as then it implies there are big problems and there is too much money invested in the machine carrying on (young horses, flashy auctions, breeding, elite level sport).

I thnk we are on the same page with this, I am horrified by the high wastage of young horses in sport, of all disciplines, but I think to address it we need to look at it in more detail, rather than making assumptions.

Some young horses, while talented, may not be the best fit for the high level rider, in whch case its preferable that they are sold to a home where their individual abilities can be appreciated. Some of them have unfortunate high level career ending illnesses or accidents which occur irrespective to their working/competition life. Then of course there are the young horses whose careers are cut short due to inappropriate training or care, and the ones whose bodies and/or minds simply cannot cope with the demands placed on them.

I just feel if we start naming individuals we should be accurate and in possesion of the facts before we make assumptions to fit our own theories, this is why I think the details of the careers that are cut short are vital. I also think how upset I would be if people who didnt know me or my horses made assumptions about them without knowing all the facts, and I'm sure we would all feel that way. So I think if we name individuals we owe it to them to be accurate, and of course that accuracy helps build a full picture of reasons behind the loss of young horses from sport.

 

[sbloom]

Some of them have unfortunate high level career ending illnesses or accidents which occur irrespective to their working/competition life. Then of course there are the young horses whose careers are cut short due to inappropriate training or care, and the ones whose bodies and/or minds simply cannot cope with the demands placed on them.

What if these two outcomes are borne of the same thing?

Gillian Higgins - "The vast majority of injuries to horses are the result of repetitive strain".