Interesting article

[Alec Swan]

booboos has given a point by point description of how she would deal with hare (well cat) chasing??

I'd like to see the same principles applied to a Greyhound which knows what a hare is, a Collie which knows what sheep are, or a Hound of any sort which is aware of its quarry.

An experiment for those of the Clicker cures all school; Take a greyhound which has coursed hares, and demonstrate to me how it is done! Take a dog which is accustomed to Man-work, and lets see it ignore its target. I wouldn't attempt to stop either, but would be interested to see those who can.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

……….

If compulsion means making behaviour happen that tends to be against clicker principles. So let's say you want to reach a sit to a puppy, you lure him into position with food click and treat, you repeat three times and then you do nothing and wait. It is very important to wait for behaviour to be offered a the dog has to figure this out himself. Clever breeds, like collies, can identify the behaviour after one reward. Less clever breeds can take much longer, I've see Afghan hoiunds take weeks to get it. Advanced dogs will know to offer behaviours on a trial and error basis until they find the one you will reward.

And this is where we will never agree. My pups sit, because that's what I want. They don't do it for any reward other than gaining my approval. For the same reason, they walk to heal, they gather the dummies (or the game before them), when I blow a stop whistle and the dog is 300 yards away, they take a direction, either by hand signal or in the case of sheepdogs, by an alternative whistle, and when at full tilt and they have a sleeve (or the live article!) in their mouth, then "Leave it" is enough.

When you tell a dog to Sit, do you tell the dog that he's a good boy? I don't, because if I did, he'd get straight back up again. I will offer praise to a dog who isn't too sure, and to get him to come to me. Offering mixed messages by praising a dog, once he's doing as bidden, then has him being replaced, and doubting the praise, or importantly, its value. I don't tell a dog to Sit-and-then-Stay. Sit means stay where you are until you get another instruction. When your dog returns to you, are you grateful? I'm not, it's what I expect. If you ever actually did any serious work with your dogs, do you ever offer any encouragement? I don't, my dogs view work, and instruction too, as a privilege.

Do you offer your dog praise if he deems to return to you? I don't, it's what I expect. There are two things which all dogs learn, in training, and RIGHT from the outset, and they are to stay where they are put, and to return when they're called. These are the basics of dog training and they are a discipline which is vital and one which they have to accept as being instructions that they will follow, regardless of any temptation which is put in there way. To accept that our dogs will acquiesce to our wishes, and to only comply when they feel inclined is to have no understanding, whatsoever, of the canine mind.

I'm wrong? Ok, you go out in to the world of serious competition work, display your abilities learned from a course, and then tell all those who have reached the top of their particular tree, that they've been wrong. No treats will ever have a dog TRULY compliant, when it has an alternative of greater interest. The only thing which will overcome temptation, for a dog, is an understanding that it will obey our wishes.

Alec.

 

[JillA]

Have you ever been about to sit down to eat when the phone or the doorbell goes, and you know no-one is going to be calling you? But you (or at least most people will) answer it because you are conditioned to answer, even though your meal is more tempting? That is conditioning.
I am still disappointed that people are entrenched in their two camps and don't feel that there just MIGHT be something they can learn from the other?
Why assume those who use reinforcement training only know it in theory? Does anyone know how Mary Ray trains her obedience dogs (or Pudsey) come to that - okay, not usable skills in the real world but what else are sit/stays, down/stays, recalls but usable tricks?

 

[Alec Swan]

Have you ever been about to sit down to eat when the phone or the doorbell goes, and you know no-one is going to be calling you? But you (or at least most people will) answer it because you are conditioned to answer, even though your meal is more tempting? That is conditioning.

……..

That I accept, and 'conditioning' can also accompany routine, and just as much for humans as dogs.

A question for you, and I am genuinely interested in your reply. There is no implied attempt to trip anyone up, you or anyone else. When I've seen film of dogs which have been trained with the clicker-treat system, I see dogs which are focused upon, and almost to the point of being welded to, their handlers. Mostly, it's been close and in-hand work. Does the system work when the same dog is 50 or 100 yards away from the handler? When a dog is required to perform a clear requirement or task, and at a distance, is the same level of discipline and compliance available to the handler?

Rather than encouraging a dog to perform a certain task for us, I and many others, are really in need of a dog which needs to be 'stopped', rather than 'encouraged'. A dog which needs to be controlled, because it's performing a task which is a part of its makeup, and the list is endless, is in essence, working for itself and it's operating within the parameters of control. I have never rewarded a dog, except at the finalising of the work which we are doing, when the animal may be at the point of being 'off his legs' with exhaustion, and then there's that moment when we look at the dog, the dog at us, and a simple 'good boy', receives a single tail-wag, by way of recognition. I'll admit that it's the best feeling ever, and on occasion, there's an acceptance and no more.

Someone, I can't remember who, said that they felt that there's a difference between pet dogs in the home, and work dogs. I'd disagree. I feel that whether I have a dog who lives in the kitchen, or a kennel, the balanced and fruitful relationships which we have with our dogs is such that it makes no difference what the dog is, or the reasons why we keep it. My approach has always been that I will have compliance, and that though allowing the animal a degree of leeway, as it ages and gains experience, the overriding principle is that, certainly during the learning times, my will is what the dog needs to put, before all else. I'm really not sure that discipline can be instilled by any other route. That's not that I'm not prepared to listen, it's just that I would never feel able to consider a system of dog training in which I had no confidence.

I believe that clicker training fails in one important and basic requirement, it fails to allow the handler to instil discipline, and a discipline which the dog accepts.

Alec.

 

[JillA]

I do think sending away is difficult to train with a reinforcer - it's hard to get the reinforcer to the dog at the correct moment. A clicker would help up to a certain point, it bridges the gap between the instant you want to mark the behaviour but would probably only be noticed over a short distance. Maybe that's it Alec - when you want a dog to do close work, and with gusto, reinforcement is the way to go. For sending away then you need a dog who defers to a leader? Of course if you can be a good leader for your dog (without being unkind) you will get the behaviour more likely to be offered, and once learned it will be easier for you to enforce.

 

[Booboos]

I'd like to see the same principles applied to a Greyhound which knows what a hare is, a Collie which knows what sheep are, or a Hound of any sort which is aware of its quarry.

An experiment for those of the Clicker cures all school; Take a greyhound which has coursed hares, and demonstrate to me how it is done! Take a dog which is accustomed to Man-work, and lets see it ignore its target. I wouldn't attempt to stop either, but would be interested to see those who can.

Alec.

You seem to be missing the rather ironic point that a greyhound knows what a hare is by being conditioned and a collie knows what a sheep is by being conditioned. Anything that can be conditioned can be re-conditioned and counter-conditioned.

 

[Alec Swan]

You seem to be missing the rather ironic point that a greyhound knows what a hare is by being conditioned and a collie knows what a sheep is by being conditioned. Anything that can be conditioned can be re-conditioned and counter-conditioned.

I don't agree with you. There's an inherent condition in that there are those breeds which are very well aware of their 'purpose', and without being introduced to it, are very well aware of their purpose. Have you ever seen how a non-purpose-used (that's the best definition that I can give!) Collie can sometimes react to cars, or anything which moves? Have you ever seen a greyhound, often those from the show bench, which have an inbuilt desire to chase? Have you ever seen a dog, one which is bred for Man-work, which is very well aware of its intended breeding and purpose? I would very much like to see examples of how clickers, or anything else for that matter, will eradicate the dog's desire to fulfil its intended use.

Alec.

 

[JillA]

"Hard wired" - i.e. characteristics which are bred into a dog - vs "learned" characteristics. As far as I am aware only learned characteristics can be unlearned, or overlaid with other learning. Hard wired are part of the genetic make up and as such are there for life, can maybe be suppressed but no more - at least, that was what was said in my training, and I haven't found anything to contradict it. If anyone has found a reinforcer powerful enough to overcome a border collie's tendency to herd, I would like to know what it is - as far as I know all we can do is direct it.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. a border collie's tendency to herd, …….. - as far as I know all we can do is direct it.

Correct.

To return to a word used previously, 'Conditioning'. Isn't all training a case of conditioning? Do we not Condition dogs to accept our instructions, and our will?

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. a reinforcer …….. .

The rest of your post is accepted and correct. However(!), what's a 'reinforcer'?

Alec.

 

[JillA]

Lol I didn't post it to be marked - do you have any idea how arrogant that makes you sound???
A reinforcer is anything the animal (dog) likes and appreciates (positive) or dislikes and so appreciates when it is removed, such as pressure(negative).

 

[Alec Swan]

Lol I didn't post it to be marked - do you have any idea how arrogant that makes you sound???
A reinforcer is anything the animal (dog) likes and appreciates (positive) or dislikes and so appreciates when it is removed, such as pressure(negative).

That certainly wasn't my intention and I wonder how you misinterpreted my thoughts. I agree with you regarding your 'learned' and 'inherent' comments and it was a well made point. That was what I said, or so I thought. I don't understand how I've 'marked' your post. I'm not too sure about arrogance, confused by your remarks, certainly!

We either approve of our dog's behaviour, or we don't. How we express ourselves now seems to have labels attached to it. I continue to return to the basics of the arguments on here, and that's that the training of a dog is being analysed (perhaps correctly), but what is a very simple and base level thinking seems, to me anyway, to have been turned in to a science (I'm not suggesting by you, but often by those who would lecture us), and by those who lecture (again, not you), and if only those who lecture would demonstrate their skills, then the arrogant and ignorant amongst us (me), may so learn.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think the point of the article is that it is unfair to not teach a dog to adapt to stress as part of it's training. Because when the stress comes...you have no option but to yoink the leash to stop the dog running in front of a car and bop it in the neck....when there is loud and crashing feedback over the tannoy as you walk past....when the vet needs to stick a needle in or shave some hair off with clippers....when you're out there on the competition field and there is lots of pressure and you can't support the dog when things go wrong...that's not 'fair'. Jmo.

 

[Alec Swan]

C_C, do you not think that the dog which trusts its handler, implicitly, will be the animal which whilst perhaps not ignoring the distractions, will continue to focus upon it's handler? Whilst I'm quite certain that there are those who use the more modern methods will have dogs which trust them implicitly, my argument would be that they've achieved that state because of their relationship with their dog, and though it may well have included the use of implements, I would be most surprised to hear that that happy state has arrived, because of an implement, or a treat. My argument remains that our relationship with our dogs is formed through our personalities, and not tools.

I use a whistle to have a dog focus on me, or to take a direction, and in that sense, a whistle, or its usage, is no different from a clicker, but just as a dog doesn't learn to walk to heel because of the use of a lead, or a whistle, or any other tool, so we actually train or teach dogs what's required by imposing our will, and that's achieved through discipline.

I find the idea that is so often promoted, that a tool of any sort will train a dog, to be alarming, and there are many who rely upon such implements. Predictably, many who fail and have unruly and self pleasing dogs wonder why. Jmo!

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm not talking about implements?! I'm talking about exposure to stress. The author is saying, if you leave that out if your training, then any trust you have with the dog will be damaged if and when you or anything else ends up causing the dog stress.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. I'm talking about exposure to stress. The author is saying, if you leave that out if your training, then any trust you have with the dog will be damaged if and when you or anything else ends up causing the dog stress.

I've just scrubbed out a reply! Describe to me the stress which you would consider pertinent so that I can better understand the author's point.

Alec.

 

[Booboos]

And this is where we will never agree. My pups sit, because that's what I want. They don't do it for any reward other than gaining my approval. For the same reason, they walk to heal, they gather the dummies (or the game before them), when I blow a stop whistle and the dog is 300 yards away, they take a direction, either by hand signal or in the case of sheepdogs, by an alternative whistle, and when at full tilt and they have a sleeve (or the live article!) in their mouth, then "Leave it" is enough.

When you tell a dog to Sit, do you tell the dog that he's a good boy? I don't, because if I did, he'd get straight back up again. I will offer praise to a dog who isn't too sure, and to get him to come to me. Offering mixed messages by praising a dog, once he's doing as bidden, then has him being replaced, and doubting the praise, or importantly, its value. I don't tell a dog to Sit-and-then-Stay. Sit means stay where you are until you get another instruction. When your dog returns to you, are you grateful? I'm not, it's what I expect. If you ever actually did any serious work with your dogs, do you ever offer any encouragement? I don't, my dogs view work, and instruction too, as a privilege.

Do you offer your dog praise if he deems to return to you? I don't, it's what I expect. There are two things which all dogs learn, in training, and RIGHT from the outset, and they are to stay where they are put, and to return when they're called. These are the basics of dog training and they are a discipline which is vital and one which they have to accept as being instructions that they will follow, regardless of any temptation which is put in there way. To accept that our dogs will acquiesce to our wishes, and to only comply when they feel inclined is to have no understanding, whatsoever, of the canine mind.

I'm wrong? Ok, you go out in to the world of serious competition work, display your abilities learned from a course, and then tell all those who have reached the top of their particular tree, that they've been wrong. No treats will ever have a dog TRULY compliant, when it has an alternative of greater interest. The only thing which will overcome temptation, for a dog, is an understanding that it will obey our wishes.

Alec.

Gaining your approval is a reward, as I said there are many different kinds of rewards.

If you want to teach a sit stay instead of a sit that's fine.

I am confused about the section on approval vs praise vs privilege. If by privilege you mean "dog wants to be near me" then that is your reward. If you mean the dog has assessed my character and finds me to be a worthwhile person to emulate (the usual meaning of being privileged to be near someone) then you are anthropomorphising to a ridiculous degree.

No one has claimed that a well trained dog is one that complies only when it feels inclined to do so.

The point of conditioning the behaviour is that it goes beyond the association with food, it becomes ingrained. Talking about dogs understanding that they should obey our wishes is again anthropomorphosizing to a ridiculous extent.

 

[Booboos]

That certainly wasn't my intention and I wonder how you misinterpreted my thoughts. I agree with you regarding your 'learned' and 'inherent' comments and it was a well made point. That was what I said, or so I thought. I don't understand how I've 'marked' your post. I'm not too sure about arrogance, confused by your remarks, certainly!

We either approve of our dog's behaviour, or we don't. How we express ourselves now seems to have labels attached to it. I continue to return to the basics of the arguments on here, and that's that the training of a dog is being analysed (perhaps correctly), but what is a very simple and base level thinking seems, to me anyway, to have been turned in to a science (I'm not suggesting by you, but often by those who would lecture us), and by those who lecture (again, not you), and if only those who lecture would demonstrate their skills, then the arrogant and ignorant amongst us (me), may so learn.

Alec.

You miss the basic point that ethology is an observational science. The studies don't say "I sat in an empty room and wondered how dogs learn", they say "I tool twenty dogs, out them under x conditions and saw what happened". As for competitions plenty of. Clicker trainers compete in obedience, agility, flyball, etc. Have you ever been to a clicker challenge competition? Pretty much all the competitors use clickers there!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've just scrubbed out a reply! Describe to me the stress which you would consider pertinent so that I can better understand the author's point.

Alec.

I already have, in several posts. Stress can be leash pressure, a raised voice, loud noise,shiny floor surface, uncomfortable surface underfoot, muzzling, perceived or real threat from someone entering the home, the presence of children, other dogs.
Waiting in line for agility can be very stressful. Getting a leg shaved at the vet. Not being allowed to express themselves, supression of natural, ingrained and genetic behaviours.

Plenty of people in top level IPO (formerly Schutzhund) and ring sport and those training detection dogs use clickers, as I am sure has already been mentioned.
But they also expect their dogs to cope with stress (a detection dog may have to work in a very noisy or dangerous environment, a sport dog must go out and tackle an 'adversary')
Which is what the article is about....