LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I have written copiuous notes and even taken a few videos if anyone is interested!
http://e-venting.co.uk/?p=97
http://e-venting.co.uk/?p=97
International Eventing Forum
- Thread starter LEC
- Start date
Scarlett
Well-Known Member
Thank you! 
BeckyD
Well-Known Member
Wow. Thank you. I can see I'm not going to get much work done tonight
Fascinating stuff.
Fascinating stuff.
ArcticFox
Well-Known Member
That is fab! Thanks for the report!
loobylu
Well-Known Member
Brilliant. I'm working my way through it- thanks for taking the time.
TPO
Well-Known Member
Thank you
Molasses
Well-Known Member
amazing notes, thank you
lindsayH
Well-Known Member
Good work! I thoroughly enjoyed it again this year. I didn't bother trying to take notes this year as I knew someone on here would do a much better job of it :-D
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
Brilliant notes! I was gutted not to be able to go, but when it came down to it I just couldn't afford it next year I am booking my ticket in advance!
next year I am booking my ticket in advance!
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
Great report Couple of minor details: Holly Woodhead never actually made the Pony team she fell off at Brand And that exercise with Toddy where they were changing legs over the pole between the double and the oxer, the pole wasn't so much at a 90 degree angle as about 45 degrees - making it harder to get the change, but the line rode smoother, if you see what I mean...
Am I the only person who didn't like the picture presented by Matt Frost and his horse? I felt it was short and tight in the neck, and he was in too much of a driving seat with shoulders behind the hips, which led to the tension. It got better, when he did the beginnning of te test for the last time at the end it was a lot more harmonious looking so I'm not saying he was trying to present that picture, but some acknowledement from either Ian or Matt that the problem was there would have been good, instead of which Ian focussed on the power and expression...
Couple of minor details: Holly Woodhead never actually made the Pony team she fell off at Brand And that exercise with Toddy where they were changing legs over the pole between the double and the oxer, the pole wasn't so much at a 90 degree angle as about 45 degrees - making it harder to get the change, but the line rode smoother, if you see what I mean...Am I the only person who didn't like the picture presented by Matt Frost and his horse? I felt it was short and tight in the neck, and he was in too much of a driving seat with shoulders behind the hips, which led to the tension. It got better, when he did the beginnning of te test for the last time at the end it was a lot more harmonious looking so I'm not saying he was trying to present that picture, but some acknowledement from either Ian or Matt that the problem was there would have been good, instead of which Ian focussed on the power and expression...
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Hi TD - Holly went to Necarne and they have a team competition?
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
Naah, Necarne was where they took the young up and coming kids back in the day to encourage them before Weston CCIP existed but no team competition (apart from the year they hosted the Pony Euros)...
ETA: sorry, this is splitting hairs and totally irrelevant to your OP - but we are a bit sensitive about these things
Holly had a great record and only really had to stand up at Brand to make the squad, but sadly she didn't she got unshipped at the water...oldvic
Well-Known Member
Great report
Am I the only person who didn't like the picture presented by Matt Frost and his horse? I felt it was short and tight in the neck, and he was in too much of a driving seat with shoulders behind the hips, which led to the tension. It got better, when he did the beginnning of te test for the last time at the end it was a lot more harmonious looking so I'm not saying he was trying to present that picture, but some acknowledement from either Ian or Matt that the problem was there would have been good, instead of which Ian focussed on the power and expression...
I wasn't there but, for me, I think there is a danger in asking an event horse for too much power and expression. They are supposed to have galloping and jumping muscles and correct expression comes from engagement and collection. They are only asked for a degree of collection so should only show a degree of expression. More important is suppleness and a horse working actively from behind in good balance. While dressage is dressage whatever the discipline, showing a pure dressage horse at an eventing forum doesn't present the picture that we see at events as they are more muscled and many event horses have to deal with conformation defects as they are bought for the ability to gallop and jump as well as move.
Sarah_Jane
Well-Known Member
Great - Thanks really interesting
SW3
Well-Known Member
Fabby report (I won't feel so grumpy about not being able to attend in person now!) - I have only got through IW section so far but really enjoying it - finding very useful and looking forward to the rest (esp DO'C)!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I would imagine the issue for Ian's segment was to find a 4* combination in a position to present a competitive test at this time and willing to do so under those circumstances.
That said, the event horse they used - winner of his age class this year - did not produce anything like the type of work you would expect from the equivalent straight dressage horse and yes, perhaps more could have been made of that. As it was, the use of a dressage horse, however impressive he was, may have added to the confusion about what sort of work is 'reasonable' to expect from an event horse and what the rider/coach of event horses can realistically aim for. Certainly the horse that came in for the 'Presentation' element was nothing like the horse that demonstrated the upper level test!!
What was said made perfect sense and was completely applicable - you could see the same elements at work during the first horse's session - but I'd have to agree, the second 'picture' didn't always add up.
It's hard in those circumstances though - Ian did emphasise that every horse has to be taken as an individual so I guess his reasoning would be using the horse in question provided a 'goal' if not necessarily a reality. And, as mentioned, the horse did become more relaxed and longer in the neck as he went, with an accompanying chat about how to get each horse to the same place, not necessarily by the same road.
I agree though, it would have been more interesting to see an event horse worked through the same routine.
Btw, later in the day, DOC really emphasised being able to ride the horse's neck up and out, with relaxation, and how this had to start in the flat work but also be attended to in the jumping work. Mark also alluded to it, especially in the necessity to be able to change the frame and have the horse take the hand softly forward.
That said, the event horse they used - winner of his age class this year - did not produce anything like the type of work you would expect from the equivalent straight dressage horse and yes, perhaps more could have been made of that. As it was, the use of a dressage horse, however impressive he was, may have added to the confusion about what sort of work is 'reasonable' to expect from an event horse and what the rider/coach of event horses can realistically aim for. Certainly the horse that came in for the 'Presentation' element was nothing like the horse that demonstrated the upper level test!!
What was said made perfect sense and was completely applicable - you could see the same elements at work during the first horse's session - but I'd have to agree, the second 'picture' didn't always add up.
It's hard in those circumstances though - Ian did emphasise that every horse has to be taken as an individual so I guess his reasoning would be using the horse in question provided a 'goal' if not necessarily a reality. And, as mentioned, the horse did become more relaxed and longer in the neck as he went, with an accompanying chat about how to get each horse to the same place, not necessarily by the same road.
I agree though, it would have been more interesting to see an event horse worked through the same routine.
Btw, later in the day, DOC really emphasised being able to ride the horse's neck up and out, with relaxation, and how this had to start in the flat work but also be attended to in the jumping work. Mark also alluded to it, especially in the necessity to be able to change the frame and have the horse take the hand softly forward.
ABE
Well-Known Member
Thanks LEC great report and brightened up my morning at work
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Oh, and thank you, LEC, for the write up!
gillianfleming
Well-Known Member
My sister went and had a great time
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.539646862733127.123919.100000634550294&type=1&l=83a6224ef1
Some pics she took, including one of my favourite event horses
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.539646862733127.123919.100000634550294&type=1&l=83a6224ef1
Some pics she took, including one of my favourite event horses
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Great notes and vids, thanks Lec, seeing those has definitely restored my sanity after I missed both Ian Woodhead and Toddy's lect/demos due to being called into meetings on behalf of ERA! Thanks.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
I would imagine the issue for Ian's segment was to find a 4* combination in a position to present a competitive test at this time and willing to do so under those circumstances.
That said, the event horse they used - winner of his age class this year - did not produce anything like the type of work you would expect from the equivalent straight dressage horse and yes, perhaps more could have been made of that. As it was, the use of a dressage horse, however impressive he was, may have added to the confusion about what sort of work is 'reasonable' to expect from an event horse and what the rider/coach of event horses can realistically aim for. Certainly the horse that came in for the 'Presentation' element was nothing like the horse that demonstrated the upper level test!!
What was said made perfect sense and was completely applicable - you could see the same elements at work during the first horse's session - but I'd have to agree, the second 'picture' didn't always add up.
It's hard in those circumstances though - Ian did emphasise that every horse has to be taken as an individual so I guess his reasoning would be using the horse in question provided a 'goal' if not necessarily a reality. And, as mentioned, the horse did become more relaxed and longer in the neck as he went, with an accompanying chat about how to get each horse to the same place, not necessarily by the same road.
I agree though, it would have been more interesting to see an event horse worked through the same routine.
Btw, later in the day, DOC really emphasised being able to ride the horse's neck up and out, with relaxation, and how this had to start in the flat work but also be attended to in the jumping work. Mark also alluded to it, especially in the necessity to be able to change the frame and have the horse take the hand softly forward.
Yes, TarrSteps. It isn't easy to find a suitable guinea pig at the right level and not everyone wants to put their neck on the line. It can however be a very useful training exercise to get horses in front of an audience particularly as it was geared to training rather than judging. It is interesting what you say about David. He was very good at getting horses out in front of him especially in the second half of his competition career.
LEC, your notes are excellent and I really enjoyed reading them. It helps that I know how all the presenters work but I could picture what was going on - thanks for saving me the price of a ticket!!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I was a bit surprised they couldn't dig up an event horse to do the job, even at a slightly lower level but hey ho. They were pretty open that Matt's horse was there precisely for the mileage, as both commented that he's a horse that shrinks into himself and gets tight in front of an audience so being able to work and repeat exercises in what was essentially a competition environment was very beneficial for him. Ian emphasised all the details of preparation and yes, it seems a shame no event rider was keen to use the opportunity for that reason alone.
The lengthening neck/horse in front of the rider idea was emphasised again and again. Caroline Powell's horse gave a masterclass in it and his relaxed, forward outlook made all the exercises look easy. It was also interesting to see how riders with different body types, different backgrounds and different horses to ride answered the same questions. Some of the questions really wanted to nail down ' right and wrong' but all the presenters emphasised the need for individual approaches but to common ends. Good training, proper practice, attention to detail, education for horse and rider. . .same old.
David and Mike E-S talked a lot about changes in the sport and in the people playing it. I think this has been much more of a necessary concern in North America but even casual conversation afterwards about changes in teaching practices suggests it's going to more of a concern here, too, as time goes by.
The lengthening neck/horse in front of the rider idea was emphasised again and again. Caroline Powell's horse gave a masterclass in it and his relaxed, forward outlook made all the exercises look easy. It was also interesting to see how riders with different body types, different backgrounds and different horses to ride answered the same questions. Some of the questions really wanted to nail down ' right and wrong' but all the presenters emphasised the need for individual approaches but to common ends. Good training, proper practice, attention to detail, education for horse and rider. . .same old.
David and Mike E-S talked a lot about changes in the sport and in the people playing it. I think this has been much more of a necessary concern in North America but even casual conversation afterwards about changes in teaching practices suggests it's going to more of a concern here, too, as time goes by.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
I agree that North America has some work to do. They have a very small pool of top riders and the rest are very trainer reliant. There is a growing trend here too that there are so many squads and training schemes that riders don't give themselves time to work out what they have been taught or have the mental strength to cope when things get tricky. Mistakes are how we learn! Riding will not become instinctive if the rider is constantly awaiting instruction. I'm not saying there shouldn't be instruction - I would be out of a job - but riders must also learn to adapt to the situation and use their feel and eye.
Santa_Claus
Well-Known Member
very jealous as I couldn't go but thank you for the notes they are fantastic and now looking forward to part 2!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
David's point was primarily that the "old ways" of teaching people to ride xc instinctively - hunting, Xtreme hacking
, jumping without reins/stirrups/tack etc - are simply no longer available to many people. We could argue that then they should not go xc but then that will be the death of the sport, especially since some of the new interest (and money!) is from countries completely devoid of those traditions. So how do we teach those people and their horses? How do we teach them for modern courses, which are increasingly not "Hunt Country" based. What exercises and practices will help develop the skill sets and instincts that will come to the fore under pressure? When we were talking after we were talking about all the things you just can't ask kids to do now, let alone adults who may have had very little if any riding tuition as children. Obviously the UK will always have hunting and access to extensive hacking unlike many coutries, but even that is no longer easily available to everyone with a horse and many who event have to choose one options over the others for any number of reasons. If those people are going to advance safely in the sport then teachers will have to recognise where they are coming from. It also brings up the point of whose job it is to educate people and horses - the course designer and the trainer - but also how far does that extend to keeping people safe? This even ties into the FEI mandate to put responsibility back on riders to make sure they are well qualified, rather than relying on officials and others on the day to police them. The problem is, of course, you can't legislate for ignorance . . .
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
Great notes LEC, I don't think I really said that properly with my nit-picking first post - I'm very sorry because you have done a great job of trying to summarise the day
I thought DOC was, once again, the stand-out performer and I would like a mini DOC on my shoulder whispering in my ear when I go XC if that could be arranged MES was interesting too, and the complexities of course design at that level were fascinating, particularly what he had to say about distances and altering the shape of the horse's jump. Also, his (strong) views on appropriate types of blocking obstacles and ensuring they are fair to the horse - views shaped, I fear, by historic events, but it is great to hear that people do learn from these things and take them on board.
Having the neck long and open was indeed a major theme for DOC; I thought the best example, though, wasn't Caroline's horse because Mac MacD always goes in that lovely relaxed frame partle because he is so beautifully ridden and partly because that is the type of horse he is - Irish TB X, looks almost (to me) like a decent hunter until you see him operate over a fence I thought the perfect illustration was Millie's horse Artie because the difference in outcome when she had him up and out as compared to when he was tight in the neck and overbent was so enormous! It was interesting, even walking him round he tended to be overbent and behind the contact - I wasn't convinced by the pelham he was wearing... I say this, btw, with the greatest respect for Millie who is an incredibly stylish, classy rider and Artie who is a very exciting young horse.
Coming back to the earlier debate about the dressage guinea pig, I feel certain that, if they had tried, they would have found someone at 4* level to do it - after all, last year Laura Collett did it with Rayef! I actually asked a 4* friend last night whether she would have done it if asked and she said she would have jumped at it - so I don't think that was the reason. I guess perhaps they just thought we would like to see the movements performed by a "proper" dressage horse and rider, and, while there were interesting bits and I was really interested to hear IW's take on stuff, it didn't work for me, possibly for the reasons suggested by oldvic. I also still think it was pretty incorrect for the majority of the time it was working (until that last run through really) and I would have liked to see overt acknowledgement of this from IW, he almost seemed to pussyfoot around Matt a bit, which he certainly didn't with the other guinea pig! I say all this in the spirit of debate, btw, not intending to offend anyone
I thought DOC was, once again, the stand-out performer and I would like a mini DOC on my shoulder whispering in my ear when I go XC if that could be arranged
MES was interesting too, and the complexities of course design at that level were fascinating, particularly what he had to say about distances and altering the shape of the horse's jump. Also, his (strong) views on appropriate types of blocking obstacles and ensuring they are fair to the horse - views shaped, I fear, by historic events, but it is great to hear that people do learn from these things and take them on board.Having the neck long and open was indeed a major theme for DOC; I thought the best example, though, wasn't Caroline's horse because Mac MacD always goes in that lovely relaxed frame partle because he is so beautifully ridden and partly because that is the type of horse he is - Irish TB X, looks almost (to me) like a decent hunter until you see him operate over a fence
I thought the perfect illustration was Millie's horse Artie because the difference in outcome when she had him up and out as compared to when he was tight in the neck and overbent was so enormous! It was interesting, even walking him round he tended to be overbent and behind the contact - I wasn't convinced by the pelham he was wearing... I say this, btw, with the greatest respect for Millie who is an incredibly stylish, classy rider and Artie who is a very exciting young horse.Coming back to the earlier debate about the dressage guinea pig, I feel certain that, if they had tried, they would have found someone at 4* level to do it - after all, last year Laura Collett did it with Rayef! I actually asked a 4* friend last night whether she would have done it if asked and she said she would have jumped at it - so I don't think that was the reason. I guess perhaps they just thought we would like to see the movements performed by a "proper" dressage horse and rider, and, while there were interesting bits and I was really interested to hear IW's take on stuff, it didn't work for me, possibly for the reasons suggested by oldvic. I also still think it was pretty incorrect for the majority of the time it was working (until that last run through really) and I would have liked to see overt acknowledgement of this from IW, he almost seemed to pussyfoot around Matt a bit, which he certainly didn't with the other guinea pig! I say all this in the spirit of debate, btw, not intending to offend anyone
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
DOC is fascinating. I would love to spend a year trailing him, Chris Bartle and George Morris around the world as feel with those three you really would have an education from people who genuinely love horses and really think about coaching and never stop thinking about it.
Like what TS and OV touched on I am particularly interested in the thoughts of how do you teach someone about xc who has absolutely no background in it and I think DOC will start a very new way of thinking about it which we will see filter down to the lower levels as it is sometimes very clear that things have changed particularly at grassroots but sometimes it does not appear until Novice.
I think course design has really taken the right direction in the last few years and I much prefer to see combinations asking riders to commit on a longer stride which tests a lot about the partnership and the training aka Pierre M and Ian Stark. MES WEG course was a masterpiece.
Like what TS and OV touched on I am particularly interested in the thoughts of how do you teach someone about xc who has absolutely no background in it and I think DOC will start a very new way of thinking about it which we will see filter down to the lower levels as it is sometimes very clear that things have changed particularly at grassroots but sometimes it does not appear until Novice.
I think course design has really taken the right direction in the last few years and I much prefer to see combinations asking riders to commit on a longer stride which tests a lot about the partnership and the training aka Pierre M and Ian Stark. MES WEG course was a masterpiece.
DarkHorseB
Well-Known Member
I wasn't there but looking at the pics was Caroline not on Onwards and Upwards? Mac MacD retired to do dressage iirc
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Yes, she was.