Introducing...Rocky

[Mynstrel]

All of what Karran and cc are saying, especially not doing things that tip him over the edge until life isn't so overwhelming for him. Build a relationship and exercise his brain in ways he can cope with, mental exercise can be more tiring but less arousing than physical exercise. Google stress buckets if you haven't come across them already, it'll help to understand where his head is at.

 

[Clodagh]

It sounds very upsetting but just to say that Ffee, a Labrador I have had since a pup, bites my arm when she gets overexcited. She did it this morning and it bloody hurt.
Apart from that reassurance I have no real help. Good luck!

 

[Karran]

I have a friend who's collie always bites her on her first flyball run just through sheer over arousal.
Once that run is done she is a focused, brilliant dog and the dog also taught herself naturally in autism support for her son so it's not necessarily a sign of aggression.

 

[blodwyn1]

Please use a muzzle for your protection my face is severely scarred after an attack from our spaniel who had cocker rage. The most loving dog normally.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Puss cat does a bitey thing when really riled up. However, he doesn’t hurt and has very good bite inhibition, didn’t leave the breeders til he was was 9 weeks. I wonder when yours was taken?

I‘d say keep him on a short leash, be super strict with him. Re toileting on the house, our first two seemed to take ages then my pil had them for a weekend when we were away. They confined them to the corridor overnight and they were trained! Maybe see if you can keep him somewhere overnight?

 

[SusieT]

Consider a snuffle mat or similar for brain engagement.
You say 'kept biting me everytime I tried to clean his feet'- set yourself up to suceed, dont try and handle a bit of the body like the feet when he has had a bad day, it will just set you up to fail.
You will get used to his cues etc. Definitely some behavioural input (ps- if it doesnt work out in a few months, do consider if the kindest thing would be to pts rather than pass him on again as sounds like you have his best interests at heart and he may be tricky!)
Main thing is - its very early days, I'd expect it to take several months to be anywhere near the dog you will eventually get if that makes sense.

 

[skinnydipper]

As he's never done any training, it doesn't hold high value for him so we need to really up the energy for it

I wouldn't ramp things up for him. He needs to relax.

He has been through a lot - rescue kennels, previous homes, long journey and the excitement and uncertainty of what to expect in a new home.

He is reactive because he is stressed/aroused and he can't cope.

I've mentioned trigger stacking on the forum in the past.

When a dog experiences a stressful event or high arousal, cortisol (a stress hormone) is released. It can take days for the level to return to normal but if in the meantime the dog is further aroused or stressed this "tops up" the existing cortisol - this means that the dog is in a permanently stressed state. When triggers stack up this can take the dog over the threshold of what he can cope with and he may become either reactive or shut down.

It is perfectly normal for rescue dogs to take time to settle and I am surprised that PTS has been suggested by someone who has never met the dog. I am not sure what SusieT's qualifications in canine behaviour are or if she has much experience of rehoming dogs with behavioural problems.

NB I am a pet owner with no qualifications in canine behaviour.

A qualified behaviourist who can work with you and Rocky is an excellent idea.

 

[On the Hoof]

i think you have had some good advice here Jen and i would be hard put to add to it, as you know i have a fearful and hypersensitive BC which leads to over arousal and in the early days we did have some redirected biting when she was in the garden where she basically used to go into the 'red zone'. What I have learned with Ripley is not to give up on my dreams for a normal life with her, but to just assume it will take time. Basically you need to deal with dog in front of you every day, and some days as many have said, his bucket will be full, so he will need very calm quiet indoor days to come down again. Honestly I would stop trying any obedience work with him completely. focus on being a calm leader, so yes set your boundaries but keep them simple at this stage (toileting outside, holding at doorways, just walking next to you in the house , calm while waiting for food etc - whatever your boundaries are that are most important within the house. This will set him up in good stead for being outside with you. He doesnt need training right now, he needs a safe calm household where he can find his paws and settle down and feel safe with you. From that every thing else will come. The dog will reflect your feelings, so if you are feeling stressed , then so will the dog. I think that you are a very goal orientated person, from what I know of you, and I think its amazing that you have taken Rocky on, but I think you need to reduce your expectations at this stage. You cannot 'fix him' with training, but you can provide a safe calm home in which he will eventually thrive.

 

[horseman1985]

Such a lovely dog!

 

[JennBags]

I wouldn't ramp things up for him. He needs to relax.

He has been through a lot - rescue kennels, previous homes, long journey and the excitement and uncertainty of what to expect in a new home.

He is reactive because he is stressed/aroused and he can't cope.

I've mentioned trigger stacking on the forum in the past.

When a dog experiences a stressful event or high arousal, cortisol (a stress hormone) is released. It can take days for the level to return to normal but if in the meantime the dog is further aroused or stressed this "tops up" the existing cortisol - this means that the dog is in a permanently stressed state. When triggers stack up this can take the dog over the threshold of what he can cope with and he may become either reactive or shut down.

It is perfectly normal for rescue dogs to take time to settle and I am surprised that PTS has been suggested by someone who has never met the dog. I am not sure what SusieT's qualifications in canine behaviour are or if she has much experience of rehoming dogs with behavioural problems.

NB I am a pet owner with no qualifications in canine behaviour.

A qualified behaviourist who can work with you and Rocky is an excellent idea.

Thanks SD. That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.
I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity. When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely vile so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.

 

[skinnydipper]

Thanks SD. That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.

I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity. When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely file so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.

You had had some good advice and I saw no reason to comment until I saw her post. She has given some seriously bad advice on AAD in the past.

Rocky is currently getting so highly aroused that he is unable to listen to you, think, or control how he responds. This will improve as he calms down.

At a year he is not a lost cause. His brain is plastic and can change with appropriate training. Good neural pathways (the behaviours that you want) can be reinforced and the dendrites that he stops using, because those behaviours are no longer useful or necessary for him, will be pruned by the brain. (that's my layman's interpretation of how synaptic pruning works in dogs )

I hope it works out for you and Rocky but if it doesn't, there is no shame in that. He is a young dog with many years ahead of him and it would not be good for you to be stressed for the next 10 years or more.

If you feel he needs to be rehomed, please contact the Rescue that he came from rather than try to rehome him yourself. There is often a clause in the adoption agreement that the dog must be returned to them. If you tell them the problems that you have found, they can evaluate him and involve their own behaviourist.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Thanks SD. That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.
I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity. When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely file so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.

I rarely agree with SusieT, she is one of those posters that I have on 'virtual ignore' but tbf, she only suggested pts, rather than passing him on again, which considering that OP said at one point that she wasn't sure she 'could do this' I don't consider to be an unreasonable comment.
I agree with posters who are saying keep him as calm as possible, we had a rehomed BC, who brought her own cat with her and I firmly believe that helped her to settle with us. I am sure that Boss Dog will be a great help in settling Rocky into his new routine.

 

[cbmcts]

I feel your pain Jenn. As you might remember I have a deaf Rottie rescue, he's a bit older than Rocky - nearly 3 - but he has what we call hysterics every now and again. When he's like that there is no getting through to him, I've just got 45kgs of tank turning himself inside out on the lead or charging around the house or garden bouncing off everyone and everything. He has snapped a few times but only bitten once but TBH, that's because I don't push my luck! I don't trust him which is sad.

When he gets over stimulated - I try and avoid it but that's not always possible - I really have to slow everything down, stay very calm and ignore the behaviour until he takes a breath. If we're out, I get him on a very short lead and march him back to the car or home, minimal reaction and attention. By the time we get home he's usually got a grip. At home, he gets put in his crate with a really good treat or bone for time out and a chance to calm himself and not let back out until he has had a nap! It's not how I've ever used a crate before but while he is literally climbing the walls, ignoring him is not an option (tried it but didn't work). Considered and am still open to a behaviourist but due to covid only remote consultations are available so not going there yet. What I am exploring with my vet is anti anxiety meds just to try and keep him on a more even keel. The vet was on holiday over Christmas so I've got to book an appointment next week but as I'm not allowed into the vets at the moment it needs to coordinate with the one vet nurse who I trust to handle him with a handover in the car park.

In saying all that, he's a great, very intelligent (if only he would use his brain for good purposes) dog. Lockdowns and restrictions haven't helped as he's not been occupied and socialised enough. Being deaf makes communication harder of course but of multiple, some very difficult dogs he is the biggest challenge so far and more than once I've seriously considered returning him. But I do love him dearly, he makes me laugh in between wanting to scream with frustration and if I can just build a bond, a relationship, whatever you want to call it with him he has great potential. I'm sure that Rocky will be the same in time but it's it's ok to think think WTF have I done? 7 months on, I still do most days...

 

[Clodagh]

I'm glad your day improved. I take my hat of to you all who try to help difficult dogs to lead a better life.

 

[JennBags]

Really appreciate the advice and input; and hearing other people's challenges and successes is really useful. I am reading and digesting every post even though I'm not responding individually.
cbmcts you sound like you have your hands full, and your way of dealing with him is inspirational.
I don't think he's a PTS case at all, it wasn't aggression as such, he's just trying to communicate and doesn't know how to when he's over-aroused. He's an incredibly quick learner, already he sits and waits for his meals, this morning he wanted to hop onto the bed but did a half hop then sat looking at me waiting to be invited.
I was a little overwrought yesterday morning, it was pretty stressful being attacked by him, but I completely understand why he did it. I'm taking all the advice here to keep things calmer and not try too hard with the training as yet. The behaviourist has a collie with almost exactly the same problems that she got at a year old, so she is going to be a brilliant asset to have, I'm booking my first session with her this week.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I agree with Skinnydipper's reply #37 about that it's important to remember that stress actually have physiological affects on the body.
But I have to admit that reading "I don't think that I can do this", in JennBags reply #23, made me think maybe temporarily overwhelmed, or maybe about to decide that they can't keep the dog, and if it's the later, what alternatives comes after that.

So I can only ditto Pearlsasinger's reply #42. I often don't agree with SusieT, but this time I think that they had a point, and didn't say it in an offensive way either, without only as a p.s. to consider if things didn't work out after some months.

But it's nice to hear that you don't actually feel that his stress, and problems, is more than you can manage, JennBags. I hope that the session with your behaviourist friend gives you some good suggestions about how to continue. And that no new Coronavirus restrictions makes the whole thing impossible.

One of the big problems with dogs that are incredibly quick learners, is that their brains, in general, don't shut off easily. And when he's too stressed, shut off is what he needs, but also what he might find most difficult to learn.

 

[skinnydipper]

I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for, a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.

 

[Sandstone1]

I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for, a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.

I agree, it happens often on here.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for, a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet if necessary.

Not really sure why I am defending Susie T but she wasn't suggesting that LOGB have the dog pts, just that it would be a better option than passing him on again if she decided that she couldn't cope with him. As LOGB had suggested that she might not be able to cope it wasn't unreasonable imho to ask her to consider not passing him on to yet another home. All immaterial, anyway as LOGB says she intends to persevere. I am sure that most of us who have taken on adult dogs with issues have at some stage thought at least 'I must be mad' but have gathered ourselves together and persevered to find ourselves with a lovely dog, several months/years down the line.

 

[Clodagh]

Not really sure why I am defending Susie T but she wasn't suggesting that LOGB have the dog pts, just that it would be a better option than passing him on again if she decided that she couldn't cope with him. As LOGB had suggested that she might not be able to cope it wasn't unreasonable imho to ask her to consider not passing him on to yet another home. All immaterial, anyway as LOGB says she intends to persevere. I am sure that most of us who have taken on adult dogs with issues have at some stage thought at least 'I must be mad' but have gathered ourselves together and persevered to find ourselves with a lovely dog, several months/years down the line.

It was, in fact, the first post I have ever seen from ST that has not been vindictive, nasty and aimed to cause distress.
I don’t blame OP for the UI though, I remember the Woolfie posts.

 

[cbmcts]

I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for, a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. I don't think that anyone would PTS just because of advice on a screen! But it is always good to remember that sometimes PTS is a valid option. It's never easy and not to be done lightly but it can be the right, albeit appallingly difficult decision and welfare wise, the better option for some animals than being passed on yet again. Sadly, many vets, for many reasons including that they don't have to live with a physically healthy but mentally damaged dog do not want or are not able to guide owners in an impartial fashion. I strongly believe that PTS is never a welfare issue as the animal will not suffer or know that their life was shortened.

 

[TheresaW]

I know Bo was nowhere near as bad as Rocky seems to be at the moment, but we were told when collected him, if it didn’t work, to take him back. He didn’t come from the nicest place, and I was told quietly, if we couldn’t cope, would we PTS rather than send him back. It’s not always the worst thing for a dog/horse/animal of choice.

I hope Rocky will settle, and I’m sure LOGB will give him the best chance he can have.

 

[Karran]

In all honesty, Miss Collie walked a tightrope for the first 6 months she was with me. I had a behaviorist and several people who's opinion I respected tell me, that there would be no shame in it. That "when you grow bored of dealing with her, there is only one ethical answer."
I ummmed and aaahhhed. Passing her on would have escalated her stress, she could/would have seriously hurt someone and I would never have forgiven myself.
We agreed that if I or my brother realised that we were scared of her, then we would book the vets for that one way trip.
I didn't trust her for the longest time, I still dont trust her with strangers and I manage this, although she now keeps out the way or offers signals that I can read to help take her away from pushy "all dogs love me" strangers rather than her just lash out mindlessly.
SusieT writes some stuff that I dont agree with, tonewise or content but I did agree with that post. The dogs dont know, better that than kennels and more stress and trying to adapt to yet another home and rules.
Jenn. I'm 100% not saying that's the only answer but there would be no judgement from me if you decided that way was the way to go.

I genuinely think you can turn this poor dog around, it already sounds better from the update, keep us updated on the behaviorist and how you get on!

Its gonna be exhausting, its gonna be stressful, it makes you question everything you ever thought you knew about dogs, but I now have a huge lapdog who offers cuddles, and today I pushed her around on her back in the kitchen pretending she was a broom to sweep up her hair and dust. Absolutely unthinkable this time last year.

 

[JennBags]

I don't know what SusieT said, but I'd absolutely have an aggressive dog PTS rather than passing it on. I don't believe Rocky is aggressive per se, he's just trying to communicate and find his feet. As cbmcts says, it's not a welfare issues as the dog doesn't know it's life has been shortened and it's a much better option than being passed from pillar to post and never being happy or fulfilled.

One of the big problems with dogs that are incredibly quick learners, is that their brains, in general, don't shut off easily. And when he's too stressed, shut off is what he needs, but also what he might find most difficult to learn.

That's interesting, he is super smart, I've been stunned by how quickly he is picking stuff up, I always thought Juno was super smart but he's like lightning compared with her. He takes ages to shut down when he's tired, but when he does, he's out for the count!

 

[SAujla]

Is he food motivated? Could try a stuffed kong or some long lasting chew. It was never going to be easy otherwise he would never have got to you, but his personality traits won't have cemented in yet will they so still time.

 

[JennBags]

The last few days have been much better. We've taken the energy right down and he's responding well. He has several 20-30 minute walks a day, getting much better at leash response and not pulling. He's still messing in the house, yesterday morning we thought we'd had our first night without a poo but then Mr JB found one in the spare room (the door was shut, he must have gone in before we shut the door). He then did both yesterday evening, I think we should reinstate the stair gate so he can't go upstairs when we're downstairs and vice versa.
I tried feeding him by hand yesterday but he got quite wound up with the excitement so ended up just giving him about a third of his breakfast that way. He knows "bed" command now but doesn't always obey it yet! He is a!so happiky going in and out of the crate with me there.
Had to cancel our appointment with the behaviourist for now due to the lockdown. Although she was still happy to come out, this new strain seems highly contagious, we know several people who've caught it and as Mr JB is in his 60s we don't want to expose ourselves any more than is necessary. I also have to see my vulnerable mum regularly and don't want her exposed either.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Instead of hand feeding maybe trying just scattering kibble on the ground for him to sniff out, or a "snuffle mat" if it needs to be a little bit more contained. Should give his nose and brain a workout.

Glad things are going a bit better.

 

[JennBags]

Instead of hand feeding maybe trying just scattering kibble on the ground for him to sniff out, or a "snuffle mat" if it needs to be a little bit more contained. Should give his nose and brain a workout.

Glad things are going a bit better.

A snuffle mat is a good idea, thank you.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Throw one bit of kibble a short distance on the ground in front of you, call him, throw another bit between your legs or on the ground close to you. That's how we teach young puppies quick recall. Keep the distances short so he isn't tempted to go off and do zoomies.

 

[JennBags]

Update on Rocky, we've had him 2 weeks now. This is turning into a novel, so congratulations if you get to the end ?.

I'm really getting to grips with him although Mr JB isn't and he's being very miserable and negative about him which of course isn't going to help. We have how had 4 mess free nights ??

I've continued feeding from the hand and keeping excitement levels low, which is working very well, he's super smart and picking everything up very quickly. He's sitting at distance, automatically lying down in his bed and getting a good wait. This morning I started "look at me" and he got it instantly. In the mornings when I let Juno into the garden, I play a game of Ready Steady, Free Dog except I use other words the first 2 or 3 times. He's been watching Juno do this, and yesterday he ran back to the conservatory door to wait with her for the game.

Yesterday morning he slipped past me out of the front door, I didn't have shoes on so had to get them on first, thankfully some neighbours were walking their 8mo collie pup and grabbed his collar when he came over to greet her. He was so obsessed with the pup, he didn't react to them thank god!

I wanted to ride yesterday afternoon so left him with Mr JB. He was hyper as usual, they were out in the garden and the 2 dogs were playing, it then turned into an argument and Rocky started fighting back (usually when Juno snarls at him, he backs down). Juno was apparently scared and went and hid in the kitchen, and Mr JB couldn't get Rocky in, so left him in the garden barking. I am not going to be able to leave him with Mr JB for the moment, he just doesn't seem to understand how to handle him, so Rocky will have to get used to being a car dog while I ride.

Rocky is getting very attached to me which may be part of the problem. Juno is also very much my dog, and she's a little sad as I'm taking Rocky out not her, I feel sad that she's sad. However I took her to the office and left Rocky with Mr JB the other day and it didn't go well, so I don't see that I have any option. Today I took them both out together, Rocky was back on 2 leads but he was pretty good, he did pull but not all the time! When we got back, Mr JB was outside the house so I dropped the short lead and let him off the other, Mr JB called him and he ran up to him (by the way we live in a cul de sac or I wouldn't have done this).

I'm considering putting him in doggy day care a couple of times a week, I did this with Juno and it did her the world of good and also gave me a break. Mr JB forgets how full on Juno was as he didn't really look after her, it was always me. Rocky is more challenging but he's at that difficult age and I think his hormones are really kicking in, yesterday he tried to hump me several times.

I'm looking forward to being able to let him off lead, when he's ready of course, I know it will be a few months, as I think he will get so much more from life.