Irish Draught info please!

T

TrueColours

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www.truecoloursfarm.com
Any comments on the pedigree and type of Jaunty Star:

http://www.dkhirishdraughtsporthorses.ca/Jaunty%20Star.eml

And on his sire - Alice's Diamond Slipper? (and you can see some pics of Jaunty Star on this site as well ...)

http://www.bowlandirishdraughthorses.co.uk/alice's_diamond_slipper.htm

I am looking at a Jaunty Star youngster to purchase to breed to my stallion and am very curious what the bloodlines are known for. My goal would be to produce youngsters that would compete successfully in either the eventing or hunter disciplines, depending on their movement, type, rideability and jumping technique

My TB stallion is also a cremello, so the youngster he produces would be buckskin, palomino or smoky black. Are there many (or any???) dilute ISH's in existence at all and would that colouring be accepted within the registry?

Thanks as always ...
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I own an 8yo 15h2 Irish Draught X Connemara Mare - she is dapple grey - that is a mix of white, grey, black hairs with dark black markings. She has a black mane and a multi coloured tail which is blond in overall appearance.
The characteristics mostly looked for in an Irish Draught is power, a broad back and a big butt. She certainly has foal bearing hips. They are also known to have kind temperaments. Their usage is in hunting, jumping and dressage. My horse is all of these things but with being forward going she is also skittish - partly because she is so sensitive and intelligent. She is up to any weight of rider and any task asked of her.

But I suspect breeding for colour sould be a hit and miss affair.

If you view the Irish Draught breed society's web site you'll see that there is TB blood in them and I personally suspect Andalucian blood as well - several Andy breeders have looked
at my girl and asked if she is an Andalucian. My girl's coat feels soft and silky even in the winter. She has minimal feather but her mane is not lush.

Canada is not that far across the pond - if I were looking for breeding stock, then I'd catch the plane and go to Dublin to see for myself. Horses are in the blood of all Irish countrymen. But as an Englishman I might say - don't believe all The Elfins tell you.

What I would say is that ID crosses are hardy and they can cope with the winter of yours - even though mine loves her padded rugs. But of course, she is spoilt.

Best of luck with your search

B G
PS If I had my druthers I'd cross my girl with a Portuguese
speaking Lusitano Lothario - maybe I will one day.
 
Just to add some eventing/hunter-orientated details to the useful info on the Alice's Diamond Slipper website.

Diamond Lad was one of four stallion sons of Kildalton Countess; another one - the multi-Dublin stallion class champion, Kildalton Gold, was also the damsire of Ballincoola and Kildalton Countess' sire, Ben Purple was the damsire of Sydney Olympic gold medallist, Custom Made.

Two of the current leading event/young event horse class sires, Puissance and King's Master, also feature King Of Diamonds in their damline.

The advanced eventer, Irish Jester (winner of the 4 & 5yo YEH finals at Burghley) is by Slyguff Joker (reverse-bred to Puissance and KM as he was KOD x Imperius).

King of Diamonds and Laughton also feature in the pedigree of Diamond Clover, sire of Hong Kong Olympic eventer, Tankers Town.

Rochestown Gold (ADS's dam) also bred the successful show hunter, Rochestown Amoroso, that has placed well in both heavyweight & ridden ID classes at Dublin in recent years.

Her paternal grand-sire, Skippy, gives a link to Jumbo and also further back to two excellent TB sires, Final Problem and Foxhunter. Final Problem's grand-son - Western Promise (s. Western Problem) was the sire of Robert Smith's Mr Springfield (eq. 4th indiv. showjumping - Athens Olympics) and closer to home, Abigail Lufkin's international eventer, Hannigan.

Tara is another link to Sea Crest (sire of Lenamore & grand-sire of Mr Meddicott) and Clover Hill while the ID sire, Milestone appears three times in Jaunty Star's pedigree. All good as Milestone was one of the best ID stallions and his progeny were known for their great walk/movement. Good walk = good gallop which hopefully will still be important in three-day eventing.

Pride of Shaulara is particularly interesting as his dam, Boston Burglar, was by Prefairy. This National Hunt sire thankfully also covered some half-bred/ID mares as he has some of the most brilliant bloodlines. Like the legendary foundation sire, Furioso, Prefairy was by Precipitation and it's easier to name the Irish jumping sires that didn't have Precipitation in their bloodlines than those that did, such as Bahrain, Middle Temple and again, Clover Hill.

On his [Prefairy] dam's side, Foxhunter and another Bay Ronald descendant, Bayardo, plus The Tetrarch appear so although every pedigree is still a gamble, lot's to like about his TB links, particularly if you're aiming at the eventing market.

*Judging* from the pics, both ADS and Jaunty Star are more like middleweight types, than a traditional ID - their pedigrees show there is quite a TB influence - so crossing a TB with a Jaunty Star mare could produce a 3/4 bred type. Of course that would also depend on what the mare's damline is like too, a TB type-dam would bring more quality to the mix.

From the ridden pics, JS seems to be a nice, trainable sort, particularly in the first & third pics and more workmanlike in the second? Depends on what level you intend to aim the youngsters at too?

I'm not aware of any registered dilute sires in the ISH register but included in the colours abbreviation list in the foal register are Cr (cream) Dn (dun) and P (Palomino) so registering foals of those colours isn't a problem, provided the parents paperwork is in order. There was one S1 stallion, Hazelbrook, by the Ben Purple sire, Clontoo Lad, that consistently sired duns/palominos so there are already some part-bred colourful Draughts here.
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Nice stallion! Hilly has given you a lot on the breeding - another claim to fame is the dam sire, O'Sullivan. He was a very good stallion AND a full brother to the late, great Grey Macha. O'Sullivan is the sire of RID stallion Barracaberry Orbit (who stands with Slipper) and has also produced some very good pure and part-bred stock.

I had a couple of O'Sullivan mares here for covering a few years ago and they were both very good types. I'm also a HUGE fan of Grey Macha - my best foundation mare was by him and I have a mare by Slipper out of her, as well as 3 daughters by my own stallion. The Slipper mare is not the most typey of her progeny but a lovely mare who really MOVES!

The Tetrarch is also in the pedigree of the Grange Bouncer RID who was an A Grade showjumper. A few years ago I bought a youngster from Ireland by Grange Bouncer who had the famous Tetrarch spots! Very pretty - and could he move!
 
Alice's Diamond slipper is fab. Would really reccomend Bowland Irish Draught's stallions. My last youngster was bred by them and he was the most genuine, kind and fun youngster I have ever come across!
 
Don't suspect Andulasian blood - it's in there for generations! There are still parts of Ireland where flea-bitten greys are known as 'Spanish greys' from when Cork traders imported Andulasians.

That's one of the conspiracy theories behind why some Irish Draught heads have a convex profile and why some Draughts tend to dish/high knee action. Others point the finger at Cleveland Bays which also lurk in a small number of Draught family trees.

TC - no problem but while writing what sprang to mind the other night, omitted McKinlaigh - another 'close to home' star. He is by Highland King (Highland Flight x KOD dam) so yet another example of the proven world-class eventers featuring King of Diamonds in their pedigrees.

I intended to mention Ballybane Grace as she and another legend, Pink Carnation are good templates of true ID mares but kept to purely performance lines lwhilst ooking at Jaunty Star's extended pedigree. Grey Macha is well-regarded as a Draught sire but didn't feature so well in the Irish Horse Board estimated breeding values study, published in 2007.

Above 110 was regarded as above average; Hermes de Reve (s. Quito de Baussy) topped the list at 147 with Flexible (s. Cruising) and Clover Echo (s. Cruising) in joint-second; Grey Macha was in the 80s range. So while Irish Draughts definitely have their place in breeding eventers with their brains and fifth leg and some pure-breds do well up to certain levels, you need the 'fuel injection' from the TB side to get to upper levels.

Hence why I was picking the TB/performance lines from JS's pedigree and wondered what level you were aiming the progeny at.
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I intended to mention Ballybane Grace as she and another legend, Pink Carnation are good templates of true ID mares but kept to purely performance lines lwhilst ooking at Jaunty Star's extended pedigree. Grey Macha is well-regarded as a Draught sire but didn't feature so well in the Irish Horse Board estimated breeding values study, published in 2007.

Above 110 was regarded as above average; Hermes de Reve (s. Quito de Baussy) topped the list at 147 with Flexible (s. Cruising) and Clover Echo (s. Cruising) in joint-second; Grey Macha was in the 80s range. So while Irish Draughts definitely have their place in breeding eventers with their brains and fifth leg and some pure-breds do well up to certain levels, you need the 'fuel injection' from the TB side to get to upper levels.


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I'd agree you need to add some TB to the mix to get a top class eventer. My own boy's sire, Touch of the Blues RID evented to Intermediate, but I doubt if Raj would have got THAT far, given the opportunity - he's too BIG!

The problem with the Irish Horse Board estimated breeding values study, IMHO, is that it compares apples with oranges, and doesn't take a LOT of things into account.

Just one example: Ben Purple is rated quite low (86.16)but when you look at the high ranking RIDs, his name pops up constantly as Dam's Sire and that's where his reputation lies.) It doesn't matter HOW good the stallion you use is if you use it on a cr*p mare. Look at the great Kildalton Countess - who produced at least 4 RID sons - all scored very well. Who was her sire? Yep - Ben Purple.

And MANY mares used in Ireland to produce Irish Sport Horses aren't even papered. Their sire is 'lost' to the system. Hell, even if there IS a sire, it may not be the sire. Before DNA testing, some of the Irish pedigrees were pretty dodgy! I had a mare here a couple of years ago whose IDHS passport said she was by a certain stallion - when she went forward for grading here - at the age of 17!! - she was DNA tested and WASN'T by that stallion! So she couldn't grade RID.

I'd hand it to the IHB/SHI for TRYING to improve the quality of Irish Sport Horses with initiatives like this. I do wish they'd keep their mitts of the Irish Draught though. The risk is that by trying to recreate the PURE Irish Draught as a performance horse, they risk losing the traits that made it such a good breed for crossing with the TB/SH types - like bone, and temperament!
 
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