Irish horses - how much do they grow?

[Birker2020]

Birker please stop giving people more food to attack you with. The only way to stop what happens to you on so many threads is to stop rising to the bait.

I know it's not fair, and that you want to put your side of things and have the last word, I understand that as well as anybody on this forum does. But you can't win that way on a forum, especially when people know that you are easy to get a rise out of.

If you know your trailer is safe and fit for the horse you want to buy that's all that matters. Please just let the thread die the death it now deserves.
.

I know you are right.

I just hate the thought of people believing all the things that are written about me, its heartbreaking.

Its almost a compulsion to defend myself and i don't understand why i let myself get manipulated in this dreadful way.

I am going to be the bigger person now and step away. Thank you.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yes they did say it was dangerous according to the 'font of all knowledge' no other than Frumpoon, it's a death trap. And i force my horse in, which anyone with any common sense knows cannot be acheived. Which is not only insulting to my Dads memory but also very incorrect and has not been backed up by any evidence at all that this is the case.

And whether they are old trailers or new trailers that you own they should still be reguarly serviced, tyre pressures maintained and the parts greased to keep them freed up, as most will be stood in the same place for a while between uses outside and exposed to the elements.

The trouble is I've posted on here (not thinking of the danger it would be used against me) of a couple of photos of my horse at the destination. With the partition slid right over to the front unload door and the horse untied and therefore free to look out over the door while I'm packing away tack etc, thus giving the illusion of it looking not high enough head room wise. What a shame i don't have any photos of my horses standing with their heads in a normal position around three or four inches lower than the headroom. But of course it's illogical to suggest my horses have all been fine travellers as that wouldn't be anywhere as near entertaining for you all.

I'm sure most would agree the same principle works with a stable door, horse holds head in a higher position to look out, horse in stable dozing or eating hay will hold its head much lower.

My horses all travelled perfectly.

I have a photo of my 17.1hh previous horse stood next to the trailer and he looks looks fine. Its just the way its been interpreted and nothing to substantiate the allegations made as is usually the case.

So jog on.

I'm not sure why you edited your post with added rudeness. But I will "jog on" because it's a pointless conversation. I've never said it's illogical that your horses were good travelers? And I'm not here for entertainment at your expense? I was merely saying you're sort of doing what you're accusing others of; making assumptions. I literally said if you feel it works, then do it. If you're so confident in your set up, don't let others get to you.

Also, I'm not here to attack or get a rise out of anyone.

I think there was some rudeness in the thread and perhaps unsubstantiated allegations, it's only natural to want to defend yourself, so I get that. At some point, with certain individuals (whether it's here or in real life), it's a fruitless effort and waste of energy, but only you can choose when to stop.

Jogging on now

 

[ihatework]

Can anyone enlighten me as to the height of the biggest trailer available and what headroom do you usually get in lorries? I remember being at one show where someone was loading a horse into a pretty big lorry and they had to put a tight standing martingale on it to stop it putting its head up as it got to the top of the ramp and thinking it couldn't go in. Often wondered what the actual headroom was.

I don’t know about the biggest headroom but my Bateson Ascot is 7’2”. I travelled my 17.1hh in it with central partition removed, but in all honesty the headroom was on the low side for him. He was a saint bless him.

My old 7.5T PRB had an internal headroom of 7’6”.

ETA - IW511 marketed for 17.2 has a headroom of 7’3

 

[Ellibelli]

Birker, I have no doubt that you love and care for your horses and your trailer is well serviced etc,. but I believe there is a legal minimum internal headroom requirement for transporting horses and for a 17hh horse I believe it's 8 foot? I don't know the impact of BREXIT on the following legislation, but I doubt we have completely scrapped it and even if it no longer applies in the UK, I think it would be foolish to totally ignore it;

Council Regulation (EC) No 1/2005
ANNEX I
TECHNICAL RULES
CHAPTER III
TRANSPORT PRACTICES

2.3. Equidae shall not be transported in multi-deck vehicles except if animals are loaded on the lowest deck with no animals on higher deck. The minimum internal height of compartment shall be at least 75 cm higher than the height of the withers of the highest animal.

 

[ycbm]

Birker, I have no doubt that you love and care for your horses and your trailer is well serviced etc,. but I believe there is a legal minimum internal headroom requirement for transporting horses and for a 17hh horse I believe it's 8 foot? I don't know the impact of BREXIT on the following legislation, but I doubt we have completely scrapped it and even if it no longer applies in the UK, I think it would be foolish to totally ignore it;

Council Regulation (EC) No 1/2005
ANNEX I
TECHNICAL RULES
CHAPTER III
TRANSPORT PRACTICES

2.3. Equidae shall not be transported in multi-deck vehicles except if animals are loaded on the lowest deck with no animals on higher deck. The minimum internal height of compartment shall be at least 75 cm higher than the height of the withers of the highest animal.

There are new trailers on sale on the UK with 7ft 3 headroom being sold to carry 17 hand horses and 7ft 6½ for 17.2s, so it doesn't look like this law applies to private use or transport of 1 or 2 horses.
.

 

[brighteyes]

Regarding a towing outfit, above all else the tail must not wag the dog and the horse will move with sudden braking and swerving. You simply wouldn't operate on the borderline. Re internal height of transport,I thought legally a horse has to be able to stand comfortably with its head and in a normal position, which must include balancing using the head and neck. 7'2" I have seen as minimum in terms of the law.

We have a lengthy and comprehensive thread on towing combinations, and it's sensible to incorporate an accurate weight of the horse and your stuff, the distance and terrain you will be normally operating over and not exceed any if the margins are tight. I would say crossing one's fingers over the impossible variable which is 'eventual size/growth potential' as part of such tow outfit limits, which I am not convinced you have fully investigated, is madness. I went there many times and only had ponies, back in the day when the Europa was the lightest thing about. You could just look out for a good Daihatsu Fourtrak and reduce the towing capabilities to zero doubt.

The wealth of information and collective knowledge on here is outstanding. Please listen to it. Your horse's safety and that of other road-users is paramount.

 

[brighteyes]

The cars will have been tested rigorously to determine the limits hence why if they were wrong they would have dire consequences and be liable for many lawsuits. So the limit is what the car is capable of. If I’m towing 1700kg with a 2200kg limit then I’m well within it. So is anyone else.

This is the only thing I disagree with but folk can buy what they like for whatever reason they like. Unless you have all the exact facts is hard to really judge I suppose

Unless that weight shifts and suddenly your 300kg becomes dramatically reduced - hills, side draughts and emergency stops... There are a lot of parameters and you normally start out with known variables! OP is considering an inflexible towing limitation with a new, variable component, and all of which are arguably impossible to predict (or verify) by us.

 

[Shilasdair]

Are you serious? Half the people on the forum have more than one user name. They don't have a genuine reason why they reinvent themselves like i was forced to and I've explained numerous times why i was HB and then Birker2020, it is a perfectly innocent reason, and the people who keep bringing it up again know the reasons why but for 'added drama' and to make it seem like its more than it is, its brought up again and again.

They have you think they felt sorry for my last horse being 'crammed' into it, the same horse I might point out who they demanded I had shot some 7yrs previously, that's how much they cared. My vets rolled his eyes and said they were nutters when i told him what they said, oh and the bit were they demanded i sack him too!. He thought it was hilarious that self appointed experts thought they knew more than he did, having been a vet for 15yrs and studying for 6, especially as they managed to diagnosis and then treat my horse without ever clapping eyes on him by telling me to shoot him.

In light of covid, mental health in the spot flight, the ongoing storyline with April on Emmerdale and the fact its only two months since i lost one of the most important, constant and non judgemental things in my life (which has literally ripped my heart in two) you'd think people would be a little kinder and show a little empathy towards others.

I'm answer you - as you replied directly to me. I have another username, but it's not secret (I use it if I lock myself out of this one which happened with embarrassing regularity for a while ). I have never had any other secret/troll names.

As for the rest - you don't seem to be in a very good place at the moment so perhaps it's time to give horse buying a rest - that will allow you to come to terms with losing your horse, and to perhaps gain a little perspective about what you do, and don't want in your next horse. And the prices may drop.

I don't know you at all so please don't take offence, but it might also be helpful to speak to someone about how you feel in terms of your horse bereavement (Blue Cross do a pet bereavement line) as well as anything else you are struggling with.

I do think you are seeing everything as a personal attack on you - when none is intended - so a little break/talking to someone might help you feel stronger.

 

[Ellibelli]

There are new trailers on sale on the UK with 7ft 3 headroom being sold to carry 17 hand horses and 7ft 6½ for 17.2s, so it doesn't look like this law applies to private use or transport of 1 or 2 horses.
.

Whilst the law may not be applicable to private transport, and is highly unlikely to be enforced anyway, I do think it should be taken as more than just guidance and a horse needs be able to lift it's head in order to be able to balance itself. I have a 17hh horse and a horsebox with 8 foot high internal headroom and really would not like to travel him in anything any lower!

 

[Tiddlypom]

My current Ifor 510 has an internal headroom of 7'7", which is a lot more than my old Europa. Tbh, I'd prefer even more headroom than that. The largest horse that I transport is a long and chunky 16.1hh, her ears can brush the roof if she puts her head up.

I don't know of any trailers with an 8' headroom.

 

[MollyFell]

Unless that weight shifts and suddenly your 300kg becomes dramatically reduced - hills, side draughts and emergency stops... There are a lot of parameters and you normally start out with known variables! OP is considering an inflexible towing limitation with a new, variable component, and all of which are arguably impossible to predict (or verify) by us.

Absolutely. I tow with a Ford S Max, it wasn’t bought with the intention to tow but it’s what I have. 1695kg capacity, 650kg trailer and a 13.2 Fell…I have 500kg+ ‘spare’ but there is no chance I would travel anything heavier than my mare. I’ve had bigger height wise but finer built. I towed over Thelwall viaduct yesterday in rain and wind, I felt totally safe but I know this is the limit of what I’d be comfortable with.

 

[brighteyes]

Absolutely. I tow with a Ford S Max, it wasn’t bought with the intention to tow but it’s what I have. 1695kg capacity, 650kg trailer and a 13.2 Fell…I have 500kg+ ‘spare’ but there is no chance I would travel anything heavier than my mare. I’ve had bigger height wise but finer built. I towed over Thelwall viaduct yesterday in rain and wind, I felt totally safe but I know this is the limit of what I’d be comfortable with.

Gulp! Do it a lot when en route to Somerford or Kelsall Hill. You would NOT want to be seat-of-your-pants legal doing that part of the trip!

 

[Ellibelli]

My current Ifor 510 has an internal headroom of 7'7", which is a lot more than my old Europa. Tbh, I'd prefer even more headroom than that. The largest horse that I transport is a long and chunky 16.1hh, her ears can brush the roof if she puts her head up.

I don't know of any trailers with an 8' headroom.

Which is one of the reasons I don't have a trailer and the downside of having big horses. I guess life is all about compromise, and to me the compromise would be to buy the trailer with the most headroom if I couldn't run a lorry, but Birker's set up is a compromise too far and whilst an amenable 17hh horse may tolerate it, it really shouldn't have to

 

[Red-1]

Can anyone enlighten me as to the height of the biggest trailer available and what headroom do you usually get in lorries? I remember being at one show where someone was loading a horse into a pretty big lorry and they had to put a tight standing martingale on it to stop it putting its head up as it got to the top of the ramp and thinking it couldn't go in. Often wondered what the actual headroom was.

I do have fair experience with big horses and travelling.

The Police horses were supposedly a minimum of 17hh. Our lorries were always made with 8' headroom. That was comfortable. We had one lorry with 7'6, which technically should have been fine, but some of them didn't appreciate it. Some previous good loaders became reluctant. With practice they got over it, but it wasn't such a good and airy feel.

The lorry with the 7'6 headroom, if they were alert, their ears would fold over when they stood with their heads up, not enough room for alert head and ears up!

I have had all my home boxes made with 8' headroom, including my little 3.5 tonne Renault Master van. It is what feels comfortable with a bog horse (was supposed to say big horse, but heck, a lot of them were Irish, so I will let the bog horse comment stand ).

I wouldn't like to go any smaller than 7'6 with anything over 17hh, of there isn't enough room for ears in a 7'6, I would imagine any smaller and you would risk a head injury in an emergency.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Aside from the trailer debate, if the OP is still looking for a quality middleweight with substance, have a glance at Amy Derber Equestrian, chestnut gelding. It has an issue which is the reason we are not trying it, despite it fitting our remit, but if the OP is on a large yard its issue won't be a problem.

 

[Rowreach]

There are new trailers on sale on the UK with 7ft 3 headroom being sold to carry 17 hand horses and 7ft 6½ for 17.2s, so it doesn't look like this law applies to private use or transport of 1 or 2 horses.
.

Hmm yes but 3.5t vans are marketed as “2 horse” so I’d take that with advisories.

I have known a lot of horses in my time, and one thing I know is that the height at the withers is just that - the height at the withers! It has absolutely no bearing on the weight of the horse, the length or set of its neck, its stance, or whether it will be happy in whatever size stable/transport/field you choose to put it in.

I think what people are saying is that the OP doesn’t know what trailer she has or what weight it is, and for me that’s the first question that needs answering. All the rest is just fluff.

Shilasdair makes a good suggestion that maybe this forum isn’t a good place for the Op right now.

 

[ycbm]

I do have fair experience with big horses and travelling.

The Police horses were supposedly a minimum of 17hh. Our lorries were always made with 8' headroom. That was comfortable. We had one lorry with 7'6, which technically should have been fine, but some of them didn't appreciate it. Some previous good loaders became reluctant. With practice they got over it, but it wasn't such a good and airy feel.

The lorry with the 7'6 headroom, if they were alert, their ears would fold over when they stood with their heads up, not enough room for alert head and ears up!

I have had all my home boxes made with 8' headroom, including my little 3.5 tonne Renault Master van. It is what feels comfortable with a bog horse (was supposed to say big horse, but heck, a lot of them were Irish, so I will let the bog horse comment stand ).

I wouldn't like to go any smaller than 7'6 with anything over 17hh, of there isn't enough room for ears in a 7'6, I would imagine any smaller and you would risk a head injury in an emergency.

I wish Blackpool followed your rules. I walked past a lorry full of police horses left to stand for a long time while they were waiting to do football duties and the horses looked as if the roof was far too low.
.

 

[paddy555]

I already have and explained that there are some sad people (much like yourself funnily enough) who go out of their way to turn something completely innocuous into a big conspiracy theory so they can stir it and cause maximum drama for their victim.

I could leave it but I am not letting your comment go. The post you are quoting was in effect to say that I was not giving details of your earlier log in name. I thought out of politeness that was something you should do yourself if you wished.

 

[I'm Dun]

Yes they did say it was dangerous according to the 'font of all knowledge' no other than Frumpoon, it's a death trap. And i force my horse in, which anyone with any common sense knows cannot be acheived. Which is not only insulting to my Dads memory but also very incorrect and has not been backed up by any evidence at all that this is the case.

And whether they are old trailers or new trailers that you own they should still be reguarly serviced, tyre pressures maintained and the parts greased to keep them freed up, as most will be stood in the same place for a while between uses outside and exposed to the elements.

The trouble is I've posted on here (not thinking of the danger it would be used against me) of a couple of photos of my horse at the destination. With the partition slid right over to the front unload door and the horse untied and therefore free to look out over the door while I'm packing away tack etc, thus giving the illusion of it looking not high enough head room wise. What a shame i don't have any photos of my horses standing with their heads in a normal position around three or four inches lower than the headroom. But of course it's illogical to suggest my horses have all been fine travellers as that wouldn't be anywhere as near entertaining for you all.

I'm sure most would agree the same principle works with a stable door, horse holds head in a higher position to look out, horse in stable dozing or eating hay will hold its head much lower.

My horses all travelled perfectly.

I have a photo of my 17.1hh previous horse stood next to the trailer and he looks looks fine. Its just the way its been interpreted and nothing to substantiate the allegations made as is usually the case.

So jog on.

Attacking other people with this utter nonsense doesnt change the facts, its just a really poor attempt at deflection. How on earth do you know how my trailer is or isnt maintained? The only thing I have ever mentioned is weight and size. None of that changes the things that have been pointed out to you. Not in an attack, in an explanation of facts, not assumptions. All of which I went to great pains to explain in a misguided attempt to help you understand. The photo of your horse stood next to the trailer is actually a really good example of how the trailer is not fine and is too small. As is the one with its head up. A horse who braces in transport will raise its head, and it will be higher than a horse interested and looking around.

You just seem to spend your time attacking people which is time you could spend investigating and checking whats been said if you dont believe it. Ironic that Frumpoon was rude, but literally no one else has been, other than you.

 

[I'm Dun]

Birker, I have no doubt that you love and care for your horses and your trailer is well serviced etc,. but I believe there is a legal minimum internal headroom requirement for transporting horses and for a 17hh horse I believe it's 8 foot? I don't know the impact of BREXIT on the following legislation, but I doubt we have completely scrapped it and even if it no longer applies in the UK, I think it would be foolish to totally ignore it;

Council Regulation (EC) No 1/2005
ANNEX I
TECHNICAL RULES
CHAPTER III
TRANSPORT PRACTICES

2.3. Equidae shall not be transported in multi-deck vehicles except if animals are loaded on the lowest deck with no animals on higher deck. The minimum internal height of compartment shall be at least 75 cm higher than the height of the withers of the highest animal.

Thats for a double storey trailer so a slightly different set up.

 

[Frumpoon]

I'll leave Birker to answer your question.

Applecart14?

i thought everyone knew that....

 

[ycbm]

Applecart14 wrote a long time ago that she has history of being severely bullied at school and that it has left her with mental scars. She also, forgive me Birker, has a clunky way of writing at times that makes it very easy to attack her. And there are a very small number of people on the forum who know she will bite very easily to perceived criticism and seem to want that to happen. And people who don't know her history then react to her overreaction and the whole thing escalates in a very nasty way.

Would it be possible to ask people to leave this thread alone now and let things die down, please?
.

 

[View]

2.3. Equidae shall not be transported in multi-deck vehicles except if animals are loaded on the lowest deck with no animals on higher deck. The minimum internal height of compartment shall be at least 75 cm higher than the height of the withers of the highest animal.

It is very clear that this does not apply to single deck trailers or boxes - only to multi deck vehicles, and therefore does not apply to your average single deck horse trailer