Irish Horses

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elliefiz

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Hi everybody i posted yesterday about a horse im thinking of buying from Czech republic and a few people asked why i wouldnt buy Irish shince i live in Ireland! I made the point that I think the time of the Irish horse has come and gone and was asked why i thought that so i decided to open a new post about it and get a few opinions on the matter.
Theres always going to be debates on breeding especially regarding breeding from horses that will never preform above average. IMO there is alot of this happening in Ireland and i feel that the Irish horse market has become a bit saturated with average and even below average horses being passed off as Irish sport horses. A sports horse is defined as a correct, sound, athletic sport horse with good basic paces making it very pleasant to ride and with a good temperament, which can be used as a pleasure or performance horse, capable of competing in showjumping, eventing and dressage at both national and international level however i have come across plenty of so called sport horses who are completey unsuitable for any of this. I agree 100% that there are people in Ireland trying to breed top class horses but there are also far too many people breeding below standard horses and this is ruining it for the people who really make the effort to breed good horses. Plus from my experience i have found that even average irish horses are commanding prices that are completly over inflated and this in turn is pushing up the price of any half useful horse. To be perfectly honest I couldnt afford to pay the prices here for a decent horse that will jump a 1.30m course, its much cheaper to go abroad. i will also point out that many of the horses winning classes in Ireland are off the continent anyway!
Anyway sorry v long post just wondering what other people think?oh and before anybody takes insult at what im saying i dont mean to offend anybody, im not writing off all sports horses- I have 2 at home myself-im lamenting the lack of good ones especially in a country that used to produce some of the best horses in the world!!
 
I must be one of the lucky ones then, coz my horse is Irish and he came from Ireland 3 months b4 I bought him and he's probably one of the best show jumpers Ive ever had.
I hear what your saying though.
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I just think that the continental europeans are better at promoting their horses.

I agree that they produce some top competition animals, but what you do not see are the thousands of rejects that would never be more than a hack. In Ireland and the UK these will be sold as riding horses, in continental Europe they are just as likely to end up producing hormones for the pharmaceutical industry or on a plate.

By buying into that industry you are unconsciously supporting it. Sorry if that sounds bit brutal, but it is a subject very close to my heart.
 
I have to agree with you on the point of promotion, this is a subject that regularily come up in the ID world
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Its all about getting out there and promoting our horses.

After all as one small example - the Irish Horse has been number one in the Eventing Stud book since they were introduced - thats about 11 years in a row!!!!!

Certainly something to be proud of in my opinion
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have been involved in breeding alot of irish horses over the years- some fabulous horses that have gone on to do very well for themselves and i recognise the fact that there are some fantastic stallions in ireland at the moment, I have ISH going to stud in April so Ive probably been in half the studs in Ireland at this stage looking at stallions for her!
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But apart from the race horse industry irish horses are not making as big an impact internationally as they used to its been a long time now since an Irish equestrian team has won at an international competition which is sad considering how the Irish have always been considered among the best in the world. The teams that are winning are from the continent and mainly because they quite simply have better horses- i mean the best performing irish rider of recent times- Jessica kurten-rides foreign bred horses she only has one irish horse- Castle Forbes Bolivar. I think that the ireland needs to look to the continent as an example of how to breed better horses.

Re the issue with what happens to below average horses on the continent i think you need to look no further than the racing yards of both Ireland and the UK where horses that under perform are treated appalingly. A friend of mine works for the ISPCA (Irish version of RSPCA) and she has seen some awful sights in her time. She has actually said that she would prefer the horses to go for slaughter than to end up the way some of them do. And even successful race horses are not an exception only 6 months ago she rescued a horse who won a Grand National over 12 years ago from the travellers. horses are treated badly everywhere so i think pointing the finger at the continent is slightly hypocritical. Plus im sure there are plenty of people on the continent who buy happy hackers and pleasure horses so im sure not all average horses end up on plates or in labs.
 
To be fair though, there is alot of quality irish sport horses taken out of ireland and shipped to the likes of america and europe and then crossed with the american tb . No wonder Ireland is loosing its quality .
 
Vechta at drumhowan stud in monaghan he is beautiful!!plus saw friends youngsters by vechta from last year and they are fab!
But i will be guilty of breeding an average horse- my mare is a decent little thing will pop around a 1.20/1.30 course but has spent most of her life hunting and is certainly no world beater!! she has an impeccable temper and im hoping to breed myself a new hunter that (fingers crossed!) will have her tempermant and laid back attitude i dont expect to breed anything amazing and have no intention of selling it.
 
But as the watcher rightly said, there are only that many good continental horses because of the amount they breed!! So percentage wise, there prob isnt a huge % that aren't as "talented" as european horses get marketed as/ Yes their breeding is a very good programme, but I dont agree with the amount of "cross breeding" and amount of breeding they do, and what happens to the "rejects". IMO, Irish horses are tougher and braver that alot of WB I have come across. OK you may not be guaranteed an amazing horse everytime, but a large majority are very nice horses to havce around, and will do more than good enough a job for the majority of riders.
 
I agree what u r saying too- the irihs jsut cant keep up with the foregin bred horses and now half the horses in ireland arent irish horses anyway as they are half breds with foreign stallions. In fact the foregin stalliosn that we r using over here are considered as third rate stallions compared with the ones standing abroad anyway.
 
Plus im sure there are plenty of people on the continent who buy happy hackers and pleasure horses so im sure not all average horses end up on plates or in labs.

elliefiz, it was a bit of a sweeping generalisation, I accept and I would be the first to support slaughter over potential cruelty, i have said that on this forum many times..what I was trying to suggest though is there is huge wastage in horse breeding. In Europe many of those less able horses are diverted out of the market, not so much here and in Ireland.
 
The horses in my yard are on are predominanatley irish bred we have one dutch warmblood the rest are a mix of pure ID's and sport horses plus a few conemaras for good measure!!completely agree that irish horses are a pleasure to have around and would trust any of our lot with my life out hunting because of their huge hearts and courage however none of them are capable of going on to being serious competition horses and this is the point im making. I want to buy abroad because the type of horse i want is becoming hard to find in Ireland and even if i could find one, the horses with any serious capabilities are priced completely out of my league even as unproven youngsters!!
 
I know Steve Hadley and his business partner regularly imported Irish-bred youngsters rather than stock from mainland Europe, reckoning that those not good enough for top-class competition were first-rate to sell as "general purpose" horses suitable for the average rider. But I did hear it was becoming harder to find decent ones at sensible prices.
 
No definitely cant beat an irish tb but like i said the irish race horse industry is the exception because its the best in the world with strict breeding policies and i know v few race horse breeders who deliberately breed horses that will perform below par. even people breeding point to pointers for pleasure will use the best flat stallions they can afford. Its because of the amount of care that goes into breeding race horses that so many ex racers go on to be successful elsewhere. Though as i pointed out already the treatment most poor ex racers receive when they prove unsuccessful is sickening.
 
looking for a horse to show jump ive no grand prix ambitions but i want to get back into it again and id like something that would jump 1.30/1.40 and young rider classes with a friend of mine. Something that maybe we could take half seriously and aim at some at the bigger classes in the long run- this translates to something that we can throw money at and harbour unrealistic dreams ie qualifying for the bigger shows and competing against the big guns!!
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As you've said you want a serious competition horse I can see your point.

My point though is that the majority of horse owners are NOT in possession of serious competition horses.

From horses I've worked with and ridden I now could honestly say that the feeling of heart, soul and self preservation you get from an irish horse can't be beaten!

I personally would only have Full IDs or 50/50 ISH from now. Dragon the horse I ride is of outstanding german breeding - this is his sire : Donnerschlag

He is adorable and wonderfully talented, but the ridden feeling you get from him is nowhere near as pleasurable as the irish horses I've ridden. I've also known other warmbloods that again are beatiful and talented, but just don't have the same feeling of heart.

I think that's probably why most WBs are sold as SJers or dressage, as the heart it takes to be an all round eventer type, and look after themselves and you is, as a rule, not there.

The old saying horses for courses again comes into play, but I for one hope that the personality of the Irish horse is never bred out purely for specialist competition purposes.
 
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I would add you have given me a serious kick up the bum to get my young boy out to the ID classes and generally start promoting him for the sake of his breed!! So thanks

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Good cos he is gorgeous! That is the exact point I was trying to make, but i'm not very good at it!
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but like i said the irish race horse industry is the exception because its the best in the world with strict breeding policies and i know v few race horse breeders who deliberately breed horses that will perform below par. even people breeding point to pointers for pleasure will use the best flat stallions they can afford.

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I dont think that is true. How do stallions such as Courtship, Up And At Em, Golden Tornado, Undeniably and Misternando continue to cover mares?
I buy horses off a bloke who has about 50 Courtship's. They are all stunning lookers and nice horses but no racehorses. This is a bloke who has bred Cheltenham winners, and they are all out of black type pedigrees - so I think your opinion is a bit rose tinted.
 
like i said in previous post i"completely agree that irish horses are a pleasure to have around and would trust any of our lot with my life out hunting because of their huge hearts and courage"

However dont agree this is because they are "irish horses" i dont think a horses origins has any bearing on its natural personality more so the way it is reared as a youngster. Alot of people i know break horses and have them out hunting within a week. Because of this most are v courageous and yet well mannered because they quicky learnt that this what is expected of them from hunting. I cant imagine there is too many irish horses that havent hunted on at least one occasion and this really stands to them.
On the continent most people breeding horses for competition and the likes would be horrified at the thoughts of bringing on a youngster like this. I can quite honestly say that Ive never met anyone who hunts a foreign horse like you say they seem to go mainly sjing and dressage but i must say that wherether foreign or not i would be reluctant to hunt any horse that i was seriously thinking about competing!!i really dont think its the personalities that are different just the way the horses are treated which imprints on them for life.
 
Im not a racing person myself so any experience i have with race horses is through my OH who is an amateur jockey. His father and most of his friends breed NH horses and anybody ive met through him strives to breed horses that will perform well so im only speaking through my own experiences!!
 
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However dont agree this is because they are "irish horses" i dont think a horses origins has any bearing on its natural personality more so the way it is reared as a youngster.

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Disagree, my boy is ISH type, was most probably completely unhandled as a baby (was terrified of life in general as a 2/3yr old) was backed at 3.5yrs and yet is the most genuine, (but very cheeky) horse going. I truly believe that is down to his breeding, as he shows pony qualities of cheekiness and and boldness, which was definitely was not due to his upbringing!!

And re. hunting, it used to be a common practice to hunt eventers, horses are horses and should be treated as such, not wrapped in cotton wool just because they are competiton animals.
 
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