Irresponsible Breeding?? Rant

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canteron

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It seems to be that over the past few years many people have been breeding, because they can, without too much thought as to whether the mare has the temprement/quality to produce offspring which are useful and marketable. I

It has sometimes made me quite cross when horses have clear temperement or health issues, but have been bred from - because thats what everyone was doing and who knows it could be the next star - and hey they can always sell it and make a few buck (ignorant?).

Now we have a situation where no-one can sell anything very much - espeically youngstock. And it devalues the good quality horses which have been carefully bred

Does anyone else think that the whole ethos should be against putting your mare to foal UNLESS it really is a considered desicion, not just, can't be bothered to ride anymore/horse unrideable (for temperment or health), etc.
 
I think there are arguements to both sides, and i posted earlier about putting my youngster in foal. I am yet to decide but have several reasons for considering it, she is immature but very striking and a lot of thought has one in to the possible choices for a stallion. On the back of this there will be the fact that i dont want the foal, she is very well bred and very well put together. She would basically be savng me money by going in foal as she would be turned away she will also have a foal at the end of it that would be sold. However her temperament is yet to be confirmed - she has an attitude prolem but this is consistent with a lot of welshies and she is still young so would you think this as a trait so not to breed or be acceptable??
 
I totally agree. My 6 year old mare has arthritis in nearly all her joints below her hocks in both hind legs. Part of the issue as to why she has such bad joints so young is the conformation in her hind legs. What was one of the vets reconmedations for her future....breed from her! Needless to say I told her exactly what I thought of that idea.
 
I totally agree! When you drive around the country and see those fields near motorways full of horses/ponies it is clear just how much indescriminate breeding goes on.

My personal view is that putting a mare in foal should only be done if the decision can unquestionably be justified. In the current climate,a private breeder should only undertake putting a mare in foal if prepared to keep the offspring for a number of years.

there should be a point to breeding from the mare in that it cannot be justified just because the owner fancies a foal and the mare is cute.

Conformation is a serious issue and I believe that no one should consider breeding from a mare with a bad temperament, particularly for ponies. However beautiful, if the mare has serious temperament issues it is not worth it. It scares me when people say their mare is too dangerous to ride, oh well perhaps we could put her in foal. umm, why?
 
Hey sorry, I didn't mean it to be about people like you who carefully consider it and will make a rational decision.

The ones that really get me mad are those who breed because the horse can't be ridden due to a conformation problem - The other one is people who breed a cute little foal, and they suprise suprise find they have no knowledge - and have made no plans - on how to handle an adolesent horse so offload the 'problem' fairly indescriminately.

Sorry to rant, but there is a person round here who's shetlands mare is continually in foal and every single one of the offspring has Springhalts(spelt right?) but they do it because it is an 'interest'!
 
I had a phone call yesterday from a girl I met once, about 3 years ago. At that time she was telling me about her mare who was "unrideable" and clearly of questionable temperament. Yesterday she was asking me if I knew of any cheap horses for sale as she needed a companion for the offspring of said mare that she had bred from because she couldn't handle/ride her
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The mare has been sold, and the youngster is, you guessed it, unmanageable
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As for vets, the number of them I've heard recommending breeding from mares with KS
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... unbelievable!
 
I agree, lots of people suggested we put our 14.1 in foal to breed a horse for my daughter to go onto, she has fab temp and on the whole has good conformation - apart from a slight deviation in her off fore cannon bone - this, along with a lot of jumping in her early years has lead to arthritis, BTW its the horse who has good temp etc, not daughter!

I decided not too (much as I would like another flicks) because I would be too scared of this deformity (sounds a bit harsh) passing to her offspring, also there are so many good horses out there already, shame we cant find one!
 
I breed for myself, not to sell on? I am onto my forth generation now. I keep the foals I breed, and luckily have always produced a filly foal so have been able to breed on.
 
I'm with you on this one, personally I thing gelding should be mandatory unless you pass some sort of test to keep AND breed from stallions.

I know a few people that have stallions to ride but don't breed from them but the majority of people can't be trusted not to 'give it a go' and see what pops out the mare.

I know there would be no way of policing! On the other hand they could just take the stallions that are breeding cr@p off the studbook, that might make the stud owners a little more cautious about what they allow the stallion to cover.
 
I didnt think you did mean me, but it is a question i have been asking myself if she isnt ready to produce for the showring is it reasonable to put her in foal. She does have an attitude problem but is this a typical welsh thing or youthness combined. And i would be saving money and sellin the foal as it would be not wanted - or rather i would want it but couldnt keep it.
 
I do agree with you mostly but just to be devil's advocate...

Is there not a risk that if we police breeding too much we will end up with a situation like the one currently facing the Kennel Club? Many dog breeds have become far too interbred and are experiencing terrible health and fertility problems. If you get really strict about which mares and stallions you can breed from could the horse world not be in the same place as the Kennel Club in 100 years time?
 
This is such an important debate and deserves more that we can give it here! it infuriated me people practice inbreeding, not just in horses but in dogs too and thankfully the BBC have finally showed the Kennel CLub what they truly think of this. I have met a very very unhappy little miniature sheltand that had clear in breeding from her papers. she had not stifle on either side and her walking was awful, she was and still is in constant pain every day and because she walks badly she then got laminitis. Unfortunatly the owner is an idiot and hasnt put her down as apparently she 'loves' it (rant). Its tha same in the racing world when all those TB get bred for speed and have no bone to speak of and are lame before they are 8. and the same with half of these foreign warmbloods that are bred so poorly they have soft bones and get Degenerative joint disease. I have seen posts of people in here who are so pleased a horse they have bought has certain bloodlines on both sides of its parentage, when to me this is rediculous as it just indicates in breeding. There is a reason that in the wild inbreeding does not survive, it causes the weaker genes to survive and the genetic fitness of the species is seriously reduced. I cannot understand it and it really angers me that people breed animals that are unfit and have genetic problems that need injections or operations to sort out. I dont know enough about it to really get involved and I know there are many many good breeders to the few bad breeders and I am not classing you all in the same boat. there are a few who should be named and shamed like in the doggy world!
 
yes, totally agree. the number of people who seem to think that if they breed crap to something reasonable they might possibly get a superstar continually shocks me.
fwiw i think to qualify as a broodmare a mare must have at least 3 out of:
exceptional temperament. no vices. good conformation. good competition/work record. proven soundness. good attitude to work, trainability. good breeding.
ideally all of them, or nearly!
breeding from it because you don't know what else to do with it because it's unrideable, a total bitch, broken down, etc, is madness.
i also think you should need a licence to breed horses, so we end up with a slight shortage of them. then they'll all be worth more and, most importantly, better treated!
fwiw i am practising what i preach this week and having a very very well bred mare put down because her work ethic is absolutely foul and she has a natural tendon weakness. if she was easy and happy to do a bit of work she'd at least have a job, and it's tempting to breed from her because i hate to lose the line (her dam was truly exceptional, and her damsire and sire are very well known), but what's the point?
 
I agree, they breed because they can & they dont really care what happens to the foal as long as they can get it sold & make a few quid on it. In fact, Thier own words actaully are 'Its only a business now!'
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Why do they feel the need to pump money into buying loads of crap mares & breed usless foals, rather than putting the money into just a couple of Good mares and breed nice foals that people actually want?
 
Kerilli I totally agree with the first part of what you said.

I also have great respect for your decision to have your mare pts. I am having a mare pts for a friend this week - a very pretty, sound limbed, well bred 7yo mare with a fantastic temperament - and one of the more severe cases of KS that I've seen. I am sick to the teeth of people having a go at my friend for having the horse pts, and the number of "why don't you breed from her" questions I am fielding is incredible
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I also have been stung by silly breeding in that I bought a youngster by Cruising out of a mare by Animo. WTF now I am less naive this was the most stupid pairing I can think of. Yes they both jump but what about trainability ???
 
Kerilli I think you should set up a breeding standard, unlike that of the Kennel CLub that does not allow cousins or grandparent to granddaughter breeding, but the mare has to be vetted for certain things to gain a certificate and the resulting foal would also gain certificate to say 'not inbred' and also 'from good parentage'!!! I'll help you set it up if you like, may make foals more expensive to cover cost but you would have proof behind the pudding.
 
because it takes less money to get hold of lots of crap mares than it does to get hold of a few good mares, and i suppose these idiots think that the more foals they breed, the more chance of a superstar. yeah, right... not if the mares are rubbish, not very likely!
 
Agree with everything you say, I would be interested to know what your mare is like as I have been very close to PTS my gelding because of his stinking attitude.
 
Thing is there are complications here - I have an ex-competition showjumping mare with good confo and bags of talent but a weak shoulder (muscle damage/sweeney shoulder) probably from an awkward fall/colliding with a jump wing sometime in her past...
Her manners on the ground are impeccable, and when she was in medium work as opposed to the light work we're keeping her in now she was 90% angelic and 10% sharp - the studs near me have told me she'd be a lovely broodmare
YET when I asked on here I was told that she'd be unsuitable as she's got a real buck in her and can be tricky, but the studs assured me these were just breed characteristics...
 
Ah finally someone else who agrees with me!!! I am totally with you on this! It makes me so angry that people breed from horses with clear health/mental issues. Bloody people should be shot.

Mind you, maybe the same could be said for people?! There is scum breeding like rats all over the country.
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TBH breed characteristics are ok if someone knows what their getting and is experienced enough to deal with them but what happens if they want to sell on a tricky / difficult horse. Personally after my experiences I wouldn't breed from anything that had bad quirks., it doesn't matter how talented something is, for me I would rather good temperament than anything else, not even the professionals want tricky horses unless they are exceptional, after all why would they when so many horses have talent and trainability.
 
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TBH breed characteristics are ok if someone knows what their getting and is experienced enough to deal with them but what happens if they want to sell on a tricky / difficult horse. Personally after my experiences I wouldn't breed from anything that had bad quirks., it doesn't matter how talented something is, for me I would rather good temperament than anything else, not even the professionals want tricky horses unless they are exceptional, after all why would they when so many horses have talent and trainability.

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Yes, but a horse that's tricky with a novice owner may be an angel with an experienced or even an intermediate rider!

This is what I don't understand - temperament is defined by circumstance so unless the horse is an obvious baggage, why shouldn't you forgive a little over-sensitivity in a mare if bred to a chilled stallion and given a good upbringing?
 
Oooh, I've love to breed myself a Welsh D x TB. Really would, but sadly I have enough mouths to feed. I've the three I've bred and am happy with my little tribe. They keep me and my sons quite busy enough
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The reason I chose to breed my own horses rather than buying horses bred by someone else, was to breed something I could not afford to buy. And I've done that. Several times now. My starting mare was an old broodmare, used for breeding by Sheikh Mohammed Al-Maktoum until their breeding plans were altered. I put her to the best stallion I could afford, and then her beautiful offspring to the best stallion I could, and finally I've bred the last. I now have 3 very beautiful, athletic, sweet natured horses. None of which I could have afforded to buy 'off the shelf'. Plus I know their entire history and have managed them from before birth. I am happy with my decision to do that.

I know I will have spend £Thousands producing each one, but that I can afford and have afforded in dribs and drabs over the years.

It's breeding to make money that would scare me! Is it possible?????????

I know someone who has recently bought a Welsh colt from the local horse market (well enough bred) and plans to start breeding this summer. So far, the mottley collection of mares they have bought in for him are toe curling. The last one isn't even papered, nor is it's actual breeding known.

NOW THAT MAKES <u>ME</u> MAD
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That is the problem with D's to get an exceptional one you need a great mum and dad - she is beautiful to look at and has great confirmation - unfortunately i had steared away from the idea of another sec d as there are few stallions i would put her to and the ones i would are generally not up for stud - ridden hoys candidates. My idea was a max 16h coloured middleweight maybe heavy tb or warmblood type to hopefully produce a very versatile and talented 15.2 middleweight and with everythin crossed it would come out skewbald! I thought that would create a worthwhile foal!
 
I think what you are saying is very valid but considering the thread in CR the other day there are not many people prepared to put up with ' sensitivity' a lot of people who discover their horses need too much work move them on. I think its fine if you can offer a foal from a favourite mare a home for life but not many of us can as circumstances change and why keep churning out trickier horses when there are so many that are well bred talented and trainable ie the full package.
 
Well I guess if you picked a homozygous coloured stallion you'd definitely end up with the coloured offspring from her you hope for. Must admit, I've crossed by TB's with WB's and have been really pleased with the offspring, temperament wise especially. That said, unless the stallion would let me cuddle him in the stable in mid-covering season I wasn't prepared to consider him as Daddy-material! My ethos has definitely paid off.

As my Mum frequently expounds,

"Good looks alone don't boil the pot!"
 
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