Is Aggressive handling a quick fix?

bhpride

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Long post sorry. I've started riding again after a 4 year break but am re-learning the Classical way which is the complete opposite to how I was previously taught so I am questioning everything as my eyes have been opened, so I'd like your opinions on this example:

Lets say a competent owner bought a wild pony to handle and school, and this owner was kind enough but at times an aggressive handler, for example:
Napping - beat with whip
Try to kick - one massive smack/beating
Schooling - "you must do what I say now and I'll make you until you are obedient" attitude
Refusing a jumping - smacked a lot until the horse won't refuse.


Do you get the idea lol? Anyway, say this pony becomes obedient and safe to handle for this owner. Because the aggressive handling is maybe a 'quick fix' rather than dealing with the root of any the problem..is it more likely that if this pony was sold to a novice for example who doesn't smack, the problems would eventually reoccur because the pony is no longer dominated so to speak?

Basically what I'm asking - Are problems more likely to be solved permanently if the root of the problem is dealt with via IH etc than if a horse has the c*ap beaten out of it until the horse effectively submits with that owner. Does anyone know of a horse handled like this who's become 'difficult' once sold to someone with a much softer approach?

I'm wondering about this because I knew a pony who had owners exactly like the above and when she was sold to a kind novice she began to become disobedient, kicking out, refusing the load, refusing jumps etc - everything that she'd be forced to do by the previous owner.

Catrin I know your ideas of handling are the opposite in terms of mine with aggressive horses so I'd love your view on this please as I am only just beginning to realize there must be a better way. Also, if you have an aggressive horse is there often a root problem/cause that needs to be dealt with and how do you do it?

Thank you all
 
I love the idea, that when an IH practitioner buys a pony, if it starts to misbehave, it's the previous (harsh and mean) owner's fault.
I think that horses respect a strong leader...who is above them in the pecking order......they don't necessarily want you to be their friend....but to make decisions for them....and that requires disciplining in the same way that a dominant mare would discipline her herd.
That is somewhat different from 'beating the c**p' out of them though.
If owners really cared about their horse's wellbeing, they would ensure that they could be part of a stable herd...living as naturally as possible when not being ridden.,
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I agree; you don't need to beat the c**p out of a horse, but they do need to know that you are the herd leader and have respect for that. I don't like bad mannered horses but I strongly don't believe in beating them to submission, that's just asking for trouble and you will not gain their respect that way. I have however over the years taken the time to study different peoples view of natural horsemanship and taken the best of what works for me from various sources and both my horses love and respect me for that and my bond with them has never been so strong.
 
I know a pony who I honestly think should've been given a sharp smack a year ago and his owners would've been spared ALOT of misery! That's not the same as giving a horse a regular hiding though, which may or may not work, depending on the horse...
Certainly didn't work with Antifaz (wasn't me who hit him, in case anyone was wondering!)
 
There are more problems caused by people being too soft with their horses than too hard IMHO.

However there is a difference between being firm and beating up a horse. I should have been a lot firmer with our first baby, who was spoilt and still will vary occasionally happily run someone unsuspecting over (as in cartoon style knock you over and trample on you- sounds funny, but in reality its not!).

On the other had we have a lovely hunter who has obviously been beaten around the head and years on still has imprinted head shy issues which have improved, but not gone.
 
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There are more problems caused by people being too soft with their horses than too hard IMHO.


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I'd agree with that to be honest CSJ.

As to the answer to the posters question - well I've had the good fortune to have a number of horses and ponies which fit into your category and in every case I would say that no the animals never reverted back to how they previously were.

My little Cloud had been very very badly beaten when I bought her 10 years ago. She still bears the physical scars although they have faded somewhat now. Her psychological scars have been gone for many many years and I very much doubt she ever remembers having been beaten because we certainly haven't touched her; she's never needed smacking to be honest, she's always been a really good little pony.

I've never lifted a hand to any horse which I know has been previously mistreated (I actually don't think your pony has been mistreated, perhaps it has been taught in a very firm manner, but not mistreated) as it's just something that I personally feel is not right so I don't do it. But then I rarely lift my hand to any horse unless they have incredibly bad manners!

Overwhelmingly what I have found from these types of horses is that when you are kind to them, they know it! They are generally incredibly affectionate horses and always try to do what is asked of them regardless of whether you smack them or not.
 
I don't agree that you need to be heavy handed, my horse has had severe behavioural problem caused by pain, if I had hit him I would have had much more and long lasting major issues with him, I now have a very well mannered, happy horse. If this pony doesn't know right from wrong in the first place, being heavy handed with it is just going to make it more difficult, then you will be more heavy handed and on it goes until you are both worn out.

Be consistent, firm but fair and don't create situations that give an opportunity for the horse to play up so it gets told off. If a horse naps and is then beaten it will nap next time as it will have learnt there is a good reason to be scared. There are always better ways to deal with things, most horses just need time to learn, the only thing a beating does is break their spirit and trust in you.

Good for you for raising the question, in case you weren't sure, I am a believer in thinking intelligently about how to resolve a problem, if you ever want to pm me for ideas I can probably find you an easy ish answer without the need for a whip! You are right to trust your instinct that there are better ways to tackle things!
 
I have a very intelligent and stroppy young horse who was nicknamed 'Kevin' as he humphed around, and thought that the world should revolve around him. He would try to kick me in the stable and would often decide that he had done enough schooling - I couldn't get him to take a step forwards, instead he would start going backwards or rear up. I only once gave him a light smack, more like a tap really and he reared and fell over, so have never smacked him since, whilst on board. I have to confess however I have given him a short sharp wallop when he went through his aggressive stage in his stable. It has taken me two years, an awful lot of perserverence and lots of tears. Maybe I haven't done it the best way, but we at last seem to be getting there and on a recent pleasure ride I had people commenting on how well behaved he was. I do believe that horses are like kids, in that they want to know where their boundaries are. My boy never seemed very happy, which I found very upsetting, but now that he's understanding the boundaries, he seems a far happier and chilled out horse. Aggression is not the answer, instead I believe the key is to not give in to your horse, if he is purely testing the boundaries - even if it takes to 2 hours to go past the scary monster, go in the trailer, get him to stand properly, etc. You must always consider though if the behaviour is caused by pain or fear, although if it is the latter, then you should still persist in overcoming the problem, otherwise they'll never grow in confidence.
More and more people seem to ask their horses opinion and go along with whatever the horse wants to do, you can almost see the horse sniggering.
I highly recommend the teachings of SuperNanny as I believe the principles are the same - I haven't quite worked out a naughty chair for my boy though.
 
I highly recommend the teachings of SuperNanny as I believe the principles are the same - I haven't quite worked out a naughty chair for my boy though.

LOL! I've worked out a similar idea - the Naughty Stable. When my 3yo was box rested for colic, she was walked in hand and put into a little electric fenced 'stable' to graze. Sometimes rudeness would overcome her and she would have bucking tantrums to try to drag us to the grass....and would quickly find herself in the empty NS (no food, no toys, nothing except rubber matting) for 10 minutes til she calmed down. Had a marvellous effect!
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'if I had hit him I would have had much more and long lasting major issues with him' how do you know this?
 
So if my opinionated and bold as brass yearling decides to boot me in the leg because I ask her to move over and she doesn't feel like it (although she has been trained to move over), what is the 'long term fix' to her 'deeper problem' ?
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well..dontcha know maye you should let her to let her express her deepest fears and resentment from you not buying her that pink fluffy toy?
 
I have always been firm with my youngster - if he kicked, nipped or barged he was firmly put in line, and on occasion did get a smack. When he kicked out at me, I immediately kicked back the offending leg - it took me 10 days to stop this and has never occured again. Ditto the one attempt he bit, he got an elbow hard in the ribs - again never done it since.

He is the sort that whilst very loveable, is extremely confident, scared of very little and would walk all over you - typical gypsy cob.

I love him very much and he gets lots of cuddles and kisses - he is the most affection little horse I have ever known - but step out of line and he is immediately put back in place. Most of the time a growl or command is all that is required.

Result - I have a youngster that to date has given me no major trouble, is good to do everything with and brings comments whereever he goes as to how well mannered and obedient he is.

I believe in fair, firm handling and where appropriate praise and punishment. I have never beaten him or left a mark on him and never would.

All horses are different and need to be treated accordingly - a hiss was enough to reduce my TB to a quivering wreck and she was rarely given more than a finger poke to bring her into line.
 
Well, TripleSandH, how did you know she liked bling?
I tried all the natural horsemanship ways;
I asked her what was wrong ('I don't want to move!')
Did she want to bond? ('F**k off!')
Was she frightened? ('Bovered? Don't fink so!')
Did she not understand ('Course, fink I'm stupid, innit?')
And then I smacked her firmly once...on the bottom.
Hasn't done it since, doesn't appear scarred emotionally, but then maybe if she went to an IH/Parelli/NH practitioner, her trauma would surface...it wouldn't be their poor horsehandling skills you understand. LOL!
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The reason I know is because when peer pressure from other people made me give in and wallop him, he got so upset that he reared over backwards and nearly broke his neck both with me on him and in hand. I also know because I have been through hell and back with him. I am not suggesting as you seem to think that you allow a horse to walk all over you, I certainly don't like ill mannered horses, but I do think there are other solutions to solve problems without resorting to beating them. As I said in my earlier post, a consistent firm but fair attitude is much more helpful than a whip.
 
Are you replying to me, BethH?
If you are I'm confused as I didn't actually ask you anything...
But I'm usually in a state of mild to severe confusion, so don't worry!
If you need to beat something, you can borrow my youngster - I don't think she has any pain receptors, and is even immune to electric fence shocks.
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Interesting. I am watching a 10 yo horse I have looked after for 3 years now out on loan to a good and knowledgeable friend of mine test out his "new mum". this horse is the most chilled and sweet personality (or at least he was for me and his owner and daughter and breeder before that). Now in his new home for 10 days, he was refusing to even enter the stable until 2 days ago. He's developed a nice line in pulling back on his lead rope and snapping the baler twine, today he even went one better and pulled the ring away from the wall with the kickboard attached in his stable. Then he deliberately crashed into my daughter on her pony (who he knows well) at the gateway to the arena (because he could). His grand finale was to rear up at the prospect of standing on the concrete at the washdown for a quick hose over. Reared up, went backwards etc etc. Got child with wheelbarrow out of the way and ended up with my friend on the end of the rope, YM with a broom behind him threatening to push him, and me walking alongside telling him off like I would a naughty child. (Cracker, I'm ashamed of you, what do you think you're doing etc etc) He went and stood quietly then, but whether it was the broom, or me telling him off who knows? There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with him, he's used to being handled by different people, but he is simply trying out his new life, and seeing just how much he can get away with. And it's a kind yard too, I know nothing awful will be happening to him when I'm not around.

I suppose what I'm saying is that this horse has never been agressively handled, but unless he bucks his ideas up and remembers his (excellent) manners, then some agressive handling may well be called for.
 
Completely depends on the horse, i believe its wrong to punish a horse harshly if it does not understand what is being asked of it or if its fear that is causing the response such as if the a wild, unhandled horse kicks out when his back legs are handled, it would be wrong to hit this type of horse, its mistrust thats making him act this way and beating him is just going to make it worse. But if the horse knows full well what is being asked and is not scared, just stubborn then i see no reason why he/she shouldnt have a few cracks with a whip.
 
Horses need a clear understanding of what is right and wrong. A bite or a kick from a horse in the wild will hurt a lot more than a tap from a human!

My mare is the sweetest and most affectionate horse I have owned and I think this is because she respects me. She does as shes told and she knows her place, which, she is happy with. I have never beaten her but she does get a tap if she steps out of line. She doesnt sulk when she gets told off.

It really annoys me to see people asking their horse not to bite them. They dont understand the english language! Horses are unhappy when they dont know their place and will constantly test you.
 
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