Is anything selling?

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canteron

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I’m not really looking (honest) but there seem to be so many ‘can’t believe it’s not sold’ post of horses which clearly have some quality, which I haven’t seen for several years, so I guess the horses without ‘quality’ really aren’t selling.

is it the economic outlook that’s ruining confidence, just less horse owning opportunities (with so many livery yards disappearing for houses) or just too many horses being bred? It can’t just be the time of year.

Is there going to be a huge Winter welfare crisis?
 
I know quite a few people who have lost a horse and are just not getting another for various reasons; money, lack of interest, children. But I also know some looking for an extremely specific horse and the list of available ones is low so the vast majority go unsold.
 
Well there are also plenty of 'still looking after 8 failed vettings' posts. So I think a lot of 'can;t believe he has not sold yet' posts are of horses with issues. Plus I think vettings are problematic and there needs to be a serious shake-up:

1) All horses over £5k need a vetting now for insurance- which is most of them
2) Anything noted on the vetting, even for a horse who is passed fit for purpose, leads to potentially very expensive exclusions so buyers are more likey to walk away for that reason, even if the 'finding' is not something that worries them much
3) Vets seem increasingly reluctant to pass horses

So perfectly decent horses get stuck unsold which does not benefit buyers, sellers or horses.
 
Regarding vettings.

Folk really need to embrace the fact that it's an opinion on the suitability at that moment. It's not a guarantee it will never go wrong, or even not go wrong in the next 6 months.

Which leads onto the reluctance of vets to approve ( because we all know there's no pass/ fail), because people then think it's perfectly acceptable to try and sue them if anything comes up at a later date.

My vet friend is an approved equine vetting vet, and dreads doing then because of the risk of come back months later.
 
I don't think it's as simple as folk being more pragmatic - the biggest issue I think is the insurance situation. If the horse does not pass, then he/she can't be insured. If they pass with comments (eg a lump that could be a fly-bite, but might be a tiny sarcoid, any future sarcoid is excluded forever. Even if it turns out that the original lump was in fact just a fly bite.

And people keep saying that there is no PASS/FAIL, but there is a box on a form saying fit for purpose YES/NO. For all practical purposes: Yes is a pass. No is a fail.

And yes I really feel for vets. My vet hates doing them and freely admits that he errs on the side of failing them because failing never leads to any come-back whereas passing does, and he does not need the grief.

I think the whole process needs binning personally. No-one benefits from the current car-crash of a system.
 
Just to add..... Lovely Jenny failed 5 years ago. She was going to the most amazing family. 2 sweet boys who adored her. They were both so excited. They had already got her a stable plaque. They almost didn't vet but then decided they ought to 'just in case' and were gutted when she failed becaue she landed slightly on the outside of the hoof. Never a lame step but vet could not guarantee she would not go lame in the future because of landing slighty unlevel, even though farriery was available to help her land flat. I was actually really annoyed that the vet later said she was a smashing pony and would suit his kids, so it was shame he felt it would be unprofessional to buy off a client!

Anyway Jenny stayed on the yard and is owned by a girl then 12, now 17, who has outgrown her but will never part with her, She is the 'yard pony' for teaching kids to jump or go XC. She still has never put a foot wrong. I don't blame the vet, but I still feel sad for those boys. Failing is not always a doged bullet but often a missed diamond. And it must be soul destroying to keep finding horses you really like for them just to fial the vet over and over again.
 
I'm also "not looking", and to be honestly the quality is either poor or they're £££.

There seems to be limited opportunity to pick up a cheaper "diamond in the rough" these days.

I've seen horses advertised as a project/with quirks for 6k! And whilst I think they could be nice horses long term, I don't have 6k to take a punt on the quirks being only training related and not pain related.
 
Ample Prosecco said:
Just to add..... Lovely Jenny failed 5 years ago. She was going to the most amazing family. 2 sweet boys who adored her. They were both so excited. They had already got her a stable plaque. They almost didn't vet but then decided they ought to 'just in case' and were gutted when she failed becaue she landed slightly on the outside of the hoof. Never a lame step but vet could not guarantee she would not go lame in the future because of landing slighty unlevel, even though farriery was available to help her land flat. I was actually really annoyed that the vet later said she was a smashing pony and would suit his kids, so it was shame he felt it would be unprofessional to buy off a client!

Anyway Jenny stayed on the yard and is owned by a girl then 12, now 17, who has outgrown her but will never part with her, She is the 'yard pony' for teaching kids to jump or go XC. She still has never put a foot wrong. I don't blame the vet, but I still feel sad for those boys. Failing is not always a doged bullet but often a missed diamond. And it must be soul destroying to keep finding horses you really like for them just to fial the vet over and over again.
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I can not blame potential buyers because they are now so expensive, and if anything goes wrong that investment loses most of its value. Our first pony cost £500, our last made pony from a friend cost £2000 with good quality tack. First horses cost £1200, which was about two months pay.
 
I was just looking through horse ads actually.

I saw one that looks just my type but needs bringing back into work so sold from field. Owner pregnancy was the reason given. Just shy of 4k! For a horse I can't even try that has been out of work for a reason which may or may not be true? No thanks.

Then I saw a KWPN? I know nothing about these horses. Sixteen years old. Described as easy to do, straight forward hack etc. £3.5k. Now I'm sure I have seen this horse advertised about 3 times - always on the same small, local sight so I assume it's the same owner. I'm unsure if its the breed, but visually the horse is extremely unappealing and I wonder if that's the reason they keep advertising him and nobody is buying him?

Two horses priced around 5k with injuries serious enough to need ongoing joint injections. Both 5k odd.

Lots of tbs.
 
Britestar said:
Regarding vettings.

Folk really need to embrace the fact that it's an opinion on the suitability at that moment. It's not a guarantee it will never go wrong, or even not go wrong in the next 6 months.

Which leads onto the reluctance of vets to approve ( because we all know there's no pass/ fail), because people then think it's perfectly acceptable to try and sue them if anything comes up at a later date.

My vet friend is an approved equine vetting vet, and dreads doing then because of the risk of come back months later.
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I can understand why your friend is worried about the reprisals but also the VDS really do defend vets to the hilt. I have tried to take legal action against a vet regarding a vetting and the VDS sent me a letter basically saying that as I was present I should have spotted the problem (which makes no sense as why would I bother paying a vet if I could have spotted the issue myself?) when I sought legal advice they said the there was no point fighting as they will keep challenging all the way. The solicitor sited a case that the claimant spent 50k in legal fees (the horses was worth a lot of money) and finally they VDS conceded.

As an aside. Ironically most of the horses I’ve had vetted and passed had problems and ones that didn’t had longer working lives. Go figure.
 
Interesting that some feel prices are still high.

The chap who sourced my mare from Holland has recently had some very smart untried young horses from the continent at mid four figures. These are horses with top class breeding, so I thought prices had come down.
 
teddy_ said:
Interesting that some feel prices are still high.

The chap who sourced my mare from Holland has recently had some very smart untried young horses from the continent at mid four figures. These are horses with top class breeding, so I thought prices had come down.
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Maybe it depends on who is selling?

I'm looking mostly at private sales or sales livery and I find these hold onto the high prices far longer than some of the dealers/professionals. Then are surprised when they're not selling!
 
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FlyingCircus said:
Maybe it depends on who is selling?

I'm looking mostly at private sales or sales livery and I find these hold onto the high prices far longer than some of the dealers/professionals. Then are surprised when they're not selling!
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Yes, that is interesting.

I imagine it’s because some private sellers simply have an unrealistic idea of pricing due to the massively inflated prices we have seen over the last few years. I suppose if you paid £8,000 for your average horse in Covid-mania, you’re going to be loathe to sell that same horse now for half the price.

I know my horse for example, from the same agent would be priced a couple of thousand less today versus the price I paid in 2023.

ETA: if I was to sell my horse now, I wouldn’t expect to achieve much more than what I paid and she’s now broken and riding away very sweetly indeed.
 
Ample Prosecco said:
I don't think it's as simple as folk being more pragmatic - the biggest issue I think is the insurance situation. If the horse does not pass, then he/she can't be insured. If they pass with comments (eg a lump that could be a fly-bite, but might be a tiny sarcoid, any future sarcoid is excluded forever. Even if it turns out that the original lump was in fact just a fly bite.

And people keep saying that there is no PASS/FAIL, but there is a box on a form saying fit for purpose YES/NO. For all practical purposes: Yes is a pass. No is a fail.

And yes I really feel for vets. My vet hates doing them and freely admits that he errs on the side of failing them because failing never leads to any come-back whereas passing does, and he does not need the grief.

I think the whole process needs binning personally. No-one benefits from the current car-crash of a system.
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Whilst I don't disagree with you at all, what is the solution? What system will work?

Buyers will still need to get an 'experienced eye' to look over purchases, there should still be some accountability on the 'experienced eye' to deter the likes of dodgy dealers, but how can it be made fair to everyone? I can't think of an easy or obvious way.
 
Jenko109 said:
I was just looking through horse ads actually.

I saw one that looks just my type but needs bringing back into work so sold from field. Owner pregnancy was the reason given. Just shy of 4k! For a horse I can't even try that has been out of work for a reason which may or may not be true? No thanks.

Then I saw a KWPN? I know nothing about these horses. Sixteen years old. Described as easy to do, straight forward hack etc. £3.5k. Now I'm sure I have seen this horse advertised about 3 times - always on the same small, local sight so I assume it's the same owner. I'm unsure if its the breed, but visually the horse is extremely unappealing and I wonder if that's the reason they keep advertising him and nobody is buying him?

Two horses priced around 5k with injuries serious enough to need ongoing joint injections. Both 5k odd.

Lots of tbs.
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Whilst I haven't actually been searching, from what I've picked up from here, on yards and from talking to people, those prices are cheap in today's market, even for what those horses are.
 
JenJ said:
Whilst I haven't actually been searching, from what I've picked up from here, on yards and from talking to people, those prices are cheap in today's market, even for what those horses are.
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Then it would seem odd that they are still for sale 🤷‍♀️
 
Interesting post as I am currently looking to buy but struggling tbh. What I have picked up is people are unrealistic about their abilities or horses in general - I want a horse to do grand Prix dressage, jump 1 m 25 and then hack on a buckle oh and then have 2 weeks off and be the same, all for 5 k( this is unrealistic)
Horses are expensive and where I used to take a punt on a cheap one - I just won't do anymore.
I think the 5k -12k market most people can stretch to achieve. It's the ones who are more money that often seem to stay on market for longer.
The same with vettings if it fails - it is a lot of money to lose, but again you have to be realistic especially with Xrays.
Dressage bred horses seem to be eyewatering money, I am trying to find something that moves well but is not necessarily dressage bred as I don't have 30k to spend!
Many videos I see horses are not sound, especially ex racers.
 
I don’t think it’s much slower than it was over the summer. I sold our outgrown ponies over the summer- the perfect ones went almost overnight, younger ones who needed the right home took longer. Mostly that was because I needed the right home with an experienced owner who had the right setup to continue to produce them and give them a good future. Just kept the ads up until the right people found us. Took three months to find the right home for one, but it was out there.

I see ads looking for ponies now that have been up since early summer. They want something perfect with a budget too small. That’s life. Just because you only want to spend x, doesn’t mean someone will sell you what you want for that value. So people end up trying something older or something that looks like good value but isn’t actually quite sound and there you have the failed vettings.
 
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JenJ said:
Whilst I don't disagree with you at all, what is the solution? What system will work?

Buyers will still need to get an 'experienced eye' to look over purchases, there should still be some accountability on the 'experienced eye' to deter the likes of dodgy dealers, but how can it be made fair to everyone? I can't think of an easy or obvious way.
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Well maybe the vetting needs to be disentangled from insurance. Like more widespread use of just having a vet cert for insurance purposes which is much more pragmatic. Like the ones you can get at an auction.

I think buyers would be more pragmatic if they understood the limitations of a vetting - it's expected to be some sort of future proofing of the horse. But it just isn't and should not be seen as that. So a far more basic vetting as the 'standard' and then if people want more they can ask for that based on their plans for the horse, but the basic one is accepted for insurance and for deposits. Ie deposit only returned if seller can;t provide a vet cert. And this to be much more clear upfront.

This might also help all those poor sellers who are slated for not returning deposits when the vet has passed the horse but has made some comments that put the buyer off. That to me smacks of unrealistic buyers wanting perfection.
 
Horses definitely aren't selling like they used to a couple of years ago, which is hardly a surprise in the current economy. The cost of everything just keeps going up - feed, bedding, livery. I've noticed the same of the housing market - it has stagnated. There have been some nice looking types for sale in my area for a fair price which haven't budged, some have even been reduced.

I think some people are still asking for lockdown prices, but they simply won't achieve them anymore.
 
My pony is on early retirement. Got 2 little children and husband is away with work a lot and I can’t juggle it all. I hope to get back on her but she’s 16 so could be approaching 20 by the time I do. Would I get another? Probably not for a long time. With mortgage interest rates higher and everything being expensive I can still luckily afford a horse, but I can’t justify the expense whilst in this stage of my life.

That being said, she’s 14.1 and an absolute angel with children. Should my girls be that way inclined then I would maybe bring her home and back into work for them as I can justify the expense for their enjoyment haha! Just not for my own.

So in short after my rambling, I think people have a lot less disposable cash than they used to!
 
Ample Prosecco said:
Well maybe the vetting needs to be disentangled from insurance. Like more widespread use of just having a vet cert for insurance purposes which is much more pragmatic. Like the ones you can get at an auction.

I think buyers would be more pragmatic if they understood the limitations of a vetting - it's expected to be some sort of future proofing of the horse. But it just isn't and should not be seen as that. So a far more basic vetting as the 'standard' and then if people want more they can ask for that based on their plans for the horse, but the basic one is accepted for insurance and for deposits. Ie deposit only returned if seller can;t provide a vet cert. And this to be much more clear upfront.

This might also help all those poor sellers who are slated for not returning deposits when the vet has passed the horse but has made some comments that put the buyer off. That to me smacks of unrealistic buyers wanting perfection.
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Do you think it's also to do with the ease of transport these days too? Most horses can be moved from one end of the country to the other these days without much organising. Meaning people are buying from further a field.

It seems rare now that people attend a vetting, meaning their is no 'on site' discussion to be had between purchaser and vet. So vet is working on a message that the purchaser is looking to do X Y Z with the horse they are vetting.

Buying closer to home would usually mean - try the pony - like the pony - put deposit on the pony - vet the pony(with your own vet) - agree to buy the pony - arrange to pay for and collect the pony - have fun with the pony.

Now buying from a few hours away generally means - see some videos of the pony - maybe try the pony - put a deposit on the pony - find a local vet to vet the pony - vet fails because of XYZ (which if you had been there in person probably wouldn't be an issue) - post on FB that 'another' has failed a vetting without really understanding what that means.

I could be wrong of course.

Also the time of year is rubbish. Give it another 6-8 weeks and people will start looking properly again (IMHO)
 
dorsetladette said:
Do you think it's also to do with the ease of transport these days too? Most horses can be moved from one end of the country to the other these days without much organising. Meaning people are buying from further a field.

It seems rare now that people attend a vetting, meaning their is no 'on site' discussion to be had between purchaser and vet. So vet is working on a message that the purchaser is looking to do X Y Z with the horse they are vetting.

Buying closer to home would usually mean - try the pony - like the pony - put deposit on the pony - vet the pony(with your own vet) - agree to buy the pony - arrange to pay for and collect the pony - have fun with the pony.

Now buying from a few hours away generally means - see some videos of the pony - maybe try the pony - put a deposit on the pony - find a local vet to vet the pony - vet fails because of XYZ (which if you had been there in person probably wouldn't be an issue) - post on FB that 'another' has failed a vetting without really understanding what that means.

I could be wrong of course.

Also the time of year is rubbish. Give it another 6-8 weeks and people will start looking properly again (IMHO)
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I'd never not be there for a vetting. So much nuance, so important. Lots can be said / suggested not all written down.

And I want a soundness specialist partner / a vet I know is seasoned doing the vetting.
 
Fieldlife said:
I'd never not be there for a vetting. So much nuance, so important. Lots can be said / suggested not all written down.

And I want a soundness specialist partner / a vet I know is seasoned doing the vetting.
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Exactly that which means location is important. My vet in Dorset wouldn't be travelling to Ireland or Scotland to do a Vetting for me (without a huge cost) so your then going with an unknown (to you) vet.
 
For older people like myself who haven't had to even look at buying for over 10 years, its shocking at the prices now, not saying the horses are not worth it, as clearly they are and inflation in everything. What I do find is no bargains anymore, problem horses going cheap if you want to put a few years into them! I ended up buying a 2 year old as the most expensive horse I have ever purchased, simply nothing out there for reasonable (to me and my resources) money. Same with grandkids pony, most expensive I have ever bought (ponies), would have been in hundreds not thousands back a few years.

Also, I think there a lot more "dealers" or "wanna be dealers" and people get tarnished with the same brush unfortunately. I avoided all dealers other than a couple I know of that friends have brought from, ended up going direct to breeding stud in the end....
 
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