Is being overbent a fashion?

[Dunlin]

First off, I am absolutely not trolling or any such variation of this, this is a genuine question.

I picked up a free local horsey mag today and flicked through it and there was a section with a 'professional trainer' teaching some schooling, leg yeilding or something like that and in every single photograph the horse was overbent and looked incredibly tight along the back.

I then browsed the for sale/loan board and almost all the adverts with photographs showed a horse well overbent, not just dressage or schooling pictures but 1 of a horse going along a Hunter Trial like it was an elementary test.

I mentioned this to the lady in the shop and she said it seems to be a bit of a fashion at the moment that the horses muzzle must bury itself into the chest so you have a nice outline and that sales of draw reins are rather high (which is a worry).

I am well out of touch and simply an occasional happy hacker now but back in the day I was never really taught to ride in such an outline, so long as the horse was working, controlled, on the bit and balanced we moved forward and I have to say most dressage tests were done with a pokey nose with fairly decent marks! Shame on me perhaps?!

 

[PaddyMonty]

I don' think it's a fashion. More a misunderstand by some riders about a) what an outline really is and b) what the term 'working a horse deep' actually entails.
A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

 

[Showstyle]

I agree that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing without truly knowing the biomechanics of a horse and why it should work the correct way.

i had a lesson not so long ago with a new trainer, who said my horse didnt listen to my hand. They had me doing tiny circles with my lad very overbend and constantly changing reins. I complained that he almost felt lame behind such that he wasnt using himself. They said it doesnt matter what behind is doing until he is soft in front.


As ive always been thought, true roundness comes from behind. I immediately got a lesson with my regular trainer, who had me ride on a soft contact and go FORWARD into my hand and we immediately improved. A horse cannot be brought into a contact purely with the hand, it has to be ridden into it. This is the mistake some riders make, by using draw reins to pull the head in without any leg to back it up.

I have also seen this technique been used more so on SJ yards. As an SJer myself I am in no way biased to other SJers but I can see how a basis in dressage would help teach how to work a horse correctly which some people dont get, as long as their horse looks "pretty".

 

[PolarSkye]

It's an epidemic of a lack of correct training and understanding of equine biomechanics.

P

 

[YasandCrystal]

It's an epidemic of a lack of correct training and understanding of equine biomechanics.

P

Absolutely this and its amazing how many dressage trainers teach incorrectly to the detriment of horse and rider.

 

[smja]

I would say that to some extent it is a fashion - in that it is commonly thought, by those who don't know better, to look 'pretty'. Sadly, the more people see overbent horses, the more 'normal' it seems...the 'but everyone is doing it' defence.

wrt the hunter trial comment, I think it is something to do with a lack of education and experience. The feeling that pinning the horse's head in somehow gives more control, in a situation where the rider may be nervous. More charitably, it could be the rider trying to slow down a strong horse, or perhaps a jump just out of shot?

 

[flojo]

As ive always been thought, true roundness comes from behind. I immediately got a lesson with my regular trainer, who had me ride on a soft contact and go FORWARD into my hand and we immediately improved. A horse cannot be brought into a contact purely with the hand, it has to be ridden into it..

I can still remember being told off nearly 40 years ago (!!!) by my then instructor after i'd been fussing about my pony not having his 'head in'.
He said that 'once we had the back end sorted then the front end would sort itself out'

 

[webble]

It seems very common. I am half heartedly horse shopping for a friend at the moment and the number of over bents is crazy, often with the rider being slightly too tall and sat in the chair position

 

[Dunlin]

Thank you very much for all the replies. I am glad it's not just me thinking "why is everything over bent", I wondered if instruction had changed since I was getting it! I agree about the Hunter Trial photograph but the horse was going a fair lick with the rider out of the seat on the flat not taking a pull, the reins had some slack. Yes it's a 'moment in time' but it just looked very odd in that environment where a horse should be stretching out and using their back, bum and legs.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's not a given that a horse stretching in the neck out is using it's back or one who is being ridden LDR is not .
Overbending is not new at all in fact I think you see it far less now showjumping than I think you did when was in my teens .
To train a horse you must be able to influence the horses neck .
The problem is that this often poorly taught and thus poorly understood .
You can ride forwards all you like but if no one has taught you how to influence the horses front correctly you won't get very far.

 

[gmw]

It's not a given that a horse stretching in the neck out is using it's back or one who is being ridden LDR is not .
Overbending is not new at all in fact I think you see it far less now showjumping than I think you did when was in my teens .
To train a horse you must be able to influence the horses neck .
The problem is that this often poorly taught and thus poorly understood .
You can ride forwards all you like but if no one has taught you how to influence the horses front correctly you won't get very far.

It certainly is and you have to saw at your horses mouth to get the perfect overbend. I am heartily sick of this. It took us a year of fittenning and schooling work and gradually educating our two youngsters 'to work from behind' long way to go yet, but its the only way.

 

[Goldenstar]

Sew sawing the horses mouth has nothing to with training the horse to allow you influence it's neck correctly .
To influence the horse back you have to be able to influence it's neck .
It's not all or nothing you have to able influence the neck correctly .

 

[only_me]

I always thought that it is not fashion per say, but a desire to train correctly without the knowledge.
So they want to have their horse light, through and engaged so in an attempt to get this the horse becomes overbent, either through too much hand or the horse doesn't simply have the muscles to hold itself.

But that is just my naive opinion as I like to thing that these people have the right goal just not sure about the method

Of course, it could also just be a shortcut if they are selling

 

[Hoof_Prints]

It is what looks impressive to the uneducated eye, draws connotations of fancy dressage horses and lots of schooling. People think their horse is working well as long as the head is in, so they see-saw and pull at the bit until the horse curls up behind to avoid contact

 

[YasandCrystal]

It is what looks impressive to the uneducated eye, draws connotations of fancy dressage horses and lots of schooling. People think their horse is working well as long as the head is in, so they see-saw and pull at the bit until the horse curls up behind to avoid contact

And what is sad is that judges score some of these overbent horses who are trailing their backend highly. It's very disheartening to witness. As gmw states it takes years and patience to bring a young horse on correctly, which is why a properly schooled horse is so expensive - the trainer won't have used gadgets like the pessoa, harbridge, chambon, equi ami and bungee reins to name but a few to school the horse; just balanced and correct riding and an understanding of bio mechanics and straightness. There is no quick fix, those are the quick ways to ruin a horse.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

It's an epidemic of a lack of correct training and understanding of equine biomechanics.


P

This.

Terri

 

[minkymoo]

I despair when I see it I know someone who's horse is horribly over bent, his nose is always tucked into his chest, yet is trailing from behind. People always say to her how nicely he's going because it looks pretty. I knew this horse before she bought him and he spent most of his schooling in draw reins

I think most people just don't see or understand what the full picture is supposed to look like - including judges. Those of us who do spend the time correctly schooling and creating a good proper frame are never going to do as well I fear. It's the schooling equivalent of obese horses in the show ring, at some point people won't know what it's supposed to look like and it'll become the norm. Very sad.

 

[canteron]

I
To train a horse you must be able to influence the horses neck .

Absolutely, the horse needs confidence in your hands (that you aren't continuously going to jab him in the mouth) and then you need to encourage him to stretch his neck - flexing the poll is pretty advanced. Note, the horse needs to Stretch the underside of the neck, too often you see the top stretched and the underneath scrunched and a ignorant but happy looking rider not understanding they are destroying their horse.

This is the best video I have come across to explain why lengthening the neck is important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9FelW0-slo&list=PL79DB45EE9C7B046C

 

[glamourpuss]

Goldenstar is right (& being misinterpretated on here I fear)
Schooling isn't about just riding the back end of a horse, there has to be a degree of influence over the neck & poll. Just riding forwards without the correct contact to create connection or flexion to create suppleness just causes an inverted, stiff horse. Correct influence of the head/neck is certainly not sawing on the mouth or tying in.
It's not as simple as just riding forwards....just as it's not as simple as 'getting the head down' but the point is some people put too much emphasis over the getting the head down.

For the record I feel a young horse working slightly behind the vertical but showing suppleness & moving towards connection & swinging over the back is preferable to a stiff, inverted horse not showing any connection. BUT I know it's still not the ideal frame & only a step on the path for some horses.

 

[blitznbobs]

I ride dressage and also get a bit frustrated when people tell me all you need to do to get an outline is use your leg more and get him going forward. In my experience this does not work . What does work is getting the horse to let you put its head wherever you see fit (left flexion, right flexion , up and down) whilst teaching a horse to think forward --- it is my bugbear to see someone constantly kicking (or squeezing) a horse - that just trains it to be dead to the leg. My horses are trained that they continue in the way they have been asked to go til I tell them differently. If you got on my v lazy gypsy cob and kicked him every stride you'd disappear into the next county!

So whilst I compete at dressage and don't have an over bent horse (except when cobbo is taking the p - he likes to put his chin on his chest ) you certainly get slated in the dressage world for being over bent these days so I see it less and less... But the constant kicking continues...

 

[sarahann1]

Absolutely, the horse needs confidence in your hands (that you aren't continuously going to jab him in the mouth) and then you need to encourage him to stretch his neck - flexing the poll is pretty advanced. Note, the horse needs to Stretch the underside of the neck, too often you see the top stretched and the underneath scrunched and a ignorant but happy looking rider not understanding they are destroying their horse.

This is the best video I have come across to explain why lengthening the neck is important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9FelW0-slo&list=PL79DB45EE9C7B046C

Thanks for posting this, this has given me a proper lightbulb moment and along with another video I found off the back of watching this has just given me that bit more knowledge, now looking back through some of my old Facebook photos I want to go back in time and slap myself.

This is what makes HHO such a great forum

 

[littleshetland]

It's not a given that a horse stretching in the neck out is using it's back or one who is being ridden LDR is not .
Overbending is not new at all in fact I think you see it far less now showjumping than I think you did when was in my teens .
To train a horse you must be able to influence the horses neck .
The problem is that this often poorly taught and thus poorly understood .
You can ride forwards all you like but if no one has taught you how to influence the horses front correctly you won't get very far.

This. Well said.

 

[Dunlin]

Thank you all once more for your insightful opinions and experience. The video you posted Canteron was particularly interesting. I guess I just never noticed it before or was 'lucky' to not see much of it at all in Pony Club, Riding Clubs and through instruction. It was only the other day when I read this magazine and was browsing the adverts that it struck me how the mass majority of horses (and ponies) were over bent, the fact the schooling article was by a professional was what made me wonder if this was a fashion or dare I even say 'correct' as someone somewhere decided to publish several photographs of an over bent horse. I suppose the publisher could not be horsey though and thought the horse looked 'pretty'. Either way, I am glad it's essentially NOT a fashion!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Absolutely, the horse needs confidence in your hands (that you aren't continuously going to jab him in the mouth) and then you need to encourage him to stretch his neck - flexing the poll is pretty advanced. Note, the horse needs to Stretch the underside of the neck, too often you see the top stretched and the underneath scrunched and a ignorant but happy looking rider not understanding they are destroying their horse.

This is the best video I have come across to explain why lengthening the neck is important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9FelW0-slo&list=PL79DB45EE9C7B046C

A great video canteron it explains the neck and back really well

 

[canteron]

Thanks for posting this, this has given me a proper lightbulb moment and along with another video I found off the back of watching this has just given me that bit more knowledge, now looking back through some of my old Facebook photos I want to go back in time and slap myself.

This is what makes HHO such a great forum

Sarahann1 what was the other video - I would love to watch it.

 

[rooseblox]

there are a few of the younger girls at the place where i work and they re obsessed with how they look while riding ect, and i truly believe its down to the internet and competitiveness, these kids take pictures and an over bent horse looks great to them, also less people seem to get riding lessons so most people are learning vicariously through what i believe to be image based material... if that makes sense