Is being overbent ever acceptable?

[wellsat]

Interested in people's thoughts

My new trainer will not accept anything at all behind the vertical, not a mm.

Up to now while I've known that it wasn't ideal he was only ever very slightly overbent and it hadn't worried me unduly. It hadn't been something I'd focussed on with other trainers.

At the yard last night I was watching a different instructor ride someone's horse in a lesson and he was advocating deep and round, the horse in question was very definitely overbent. He was saying its fine to train like this at home.

Flicking through a magazine yesterday there was an article about dressage and the demo horse, while stunning, was definitely overbent.

What's your perspective, I'm not getting into a Rolkur debate here but wondered what other people thought about allowing your horse to be behind the vertical?

 

[Kokopelli]

Coming from someone who doesn't really know her stuff:
When my lad was putting muscle on we worked him very long and low and he would naturally go very slightly BTV when working like this. Whilst muscle building it was acceptable and my RI said as long as there was a smooth curve along his neck and he wasn't breaking at the 3rd vertebrae it was okay.

Now he's built muscle up we don't allow him to go BTV but he will if he gets very tired.

 

[floradora09]

My trainer teaches that it's fine to work a horse deeper some of the time, as they can built up the muscle on their necks more easily which they need to carry themselves in a true outline when they come 'up' if you like. Plus when they're deeper, it is much easier to take flexions and really get the horse to let go through the neck if you need to do this.

I think it's really a case of what works for horse and what makes sense to the rider. I ride my horse quite deep which has really helped to loosen him up but one thing is that when he's tired (say, in the second test of the day) as he finds working deeper more easy he has a tendancy to drop down. But, he's much looser and more supple now, and out marks are better than ever, and because of this I just need to sit up and kick him on a bit so he comes up.

However my trainer is a firm believer that there is not one way to train horses, and even not one way to train one horse, for example my horse went a bit sour in the school and wouldn't move forward and just curled away from the contact, and so rather than working him deep in my lesson like normal, I just gave the rein to him and kicked him on, and sure enough he came up into an outline and felt lovely by end of lesson.

 

[lex2501]

I'm no expert but I have been taught that if your riding a horse who is naturally a little "upside down" and reluctant to come round, the rounder you work the the better so being behind the vertical is acceptable when schooling that type of horse. Works in the other way too - if the horse wants to go overbent naturally, then you work them a little more in front of the vertical.

Each to their own I guess but makes sense to allow muscles to stretch to supple the horse. I always start a finish my sessions long and low and my horses know how to work in different frames depending on the aids.

 

[xspiralx]

Personally I prefer a horse to be deep and round and really working over its back (even if its a bit overbent), than one which is above the contact and not really working through from behind but has its head in a technically correct position.

BTV might not be ideal but nor is it a big issue to me, provided the horse is working through and over its back, and isn't evading the contact by trying to duck behind it.

 

[Kelpie]

depends who you ask.... if you ask Philippe Karl, then certainally the answer is "no, never"! (I'd love to know who your trainer trained with?)

 

[OneInAMillion]

Well atm for me I prefer A being slightly over bent...it a)means he is learning to work a little better and b) means I don't have two ears in my mouth!!

 

[millitiger]

I totally agree with your new trainer and would never ride a horse BTV on purpose for any reason- it is my biggest pet hate!

I understand young or weak horses can drop BTV for moments but imo it should be corrected immediately and not accepted, the same way you don't accept if your horse throws his head up and hollows.

It is possible to stretch and work long and low with the nose in front of the vertical- you can get the horse's head on the floor in a stretch and the nose can still be in front of the vertical so I can't see why you would need to work the horse BTV.

I've always had this view (and get torn apart for it on these threads! ).

As for the excuse that it is better than working hollow and above the contact, perhaps, but you could always aim for the happy medium of in front of the vertical and working over the back

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

It is possible to stretch and work long and low with the nose in front of the vertical- you can get the horse's head on the floor in a stretch and the nose can still be in front of the vertical so I can't see why you would need to work the horse BTV.

As for the excuse that it is better than working hollow and above the contact, perhaps, but you could always aim for the happy medium of in front of the vertical and working over the back

Very true.

 

[dressager]

As the neck as head position should be a result of how the back is working, no I don't think it's acceptable to work over bent. Riding forwards and keeping the nose on or just in front of the vertical is the aim. However it's really difficult as so many horses have been taught to curl under and I'm not saying my horse never comes BTV, but I know it's when he is not truly on my aids.

As Millitiger said, even long and low should be in front of the vertical.*

Overbent horses are usually not in front of the aids or are being ridden front to back with too much hand and not enough driving aids.

 

[Tnavas]

Here is another who will say NEVER EVER!

A horse that is overbent is not working correctly - is not accepting the contact correctly and cannot develop correctly. It cannot go forward correctly because it cannot physically put its feet down in a line ahead of the face - therefore the shoulders become restricted.

+ it is the hardest habit to break - once a horse learns to be behind the vertical he will use it to escape working.

Long and low is different - the horses face should still stay in front of the vertical withthe horse maintaining the rhythm without falling onto the forehand.

 

[Nocturnal]

Imho I think that btv is only a cardinal sin if the horse is also behind the contact. If its working correctly into the contact; with throughness and connection then I personally feel that working a horse deep has its place. In competition, though, I'd say the aim is always to work at, or slightly in front of, the vertical. But I'm by no means an expert!

 

[mystiandsunny]

Other than when stretching long and low for warm-up, no. If a horse goes behind the vertical, even a little, several things happen. First, the connection over the whole topline/spine to the head and therefore the reins is lost. That allows the back to hollow, the hind legs to disengage slightly, and you lose your ability to get the same amount of power. Eventually, the back stiffens as it's not really carrying the rider properly any more, and proper connection around corners, for lateral work etc is lost.

But hey, you can still win a dressage test like that, 'cause all they seem to be looking at is the horse's legs. So in the competition world it is acceptable.

 

[Tallulah]

What is so interesting in this type of discussion is the assumption that a horse can only be hollow if it is above the bit.....
Obviously hollow or above the bit are neither desirable or helpful, but just because the horse is round in the neck does not mean that he is lifted through his back with his pelvis and quarters working correctly to support the weight of both himself and his rider.
There are many ridden horses who are disengaged and hollow whilst remaining on the vertical or sometimes behind it.......
I just feel it is important to mention that above the bit and hollow are not mutually exclusive!

 

[Baggybreeches]

No, never. If the horse is overbent and BTV then it cannot be truly moving forward, as soon as the BTV moment happens then the horse loses engagement.
To use a saying that I heard this morning: 'you can't push a piece of string' which put in this context means that the horse must always be working from behind 'into' the contact.
I judged at a local yard comp last weekend and although there were lots of things that the guys could have done better, I was really impressed with the way that everybody rode forward ALL of the time, without forwardness you haven't got 50% of what you need.

 

[millitiger]

But hey, you can still win a dressage test like that, 'cause all they seem to be looking at is the horse's legs. So in the competition world it is acceptable.

I actually think judges are getting much, much tighter about BTV and take marks off for it much more freely now.

My little tb doesn't move brilliantly but is correct and hasn't scored under 70% for about a year- the judges like the way she goes and struggle to knock marks off as she does a correct and accurate test.

I'm not saying BTV horses don't still win but you have to think that maybe even though they are BTV they are be the best of the bunch that day, but I do think it is less common now than a few years ago.

 

[wellsat]

Thanks, really interesting perspectives everyone. As difficult as it is I'm getting very good results with riding G forwards more. People who've watched are really impressed by his paces and they weren't bad before, just need to re-educate ourselves now that its never, ever acceptable and know that the rest of it all come back in time. Did an amazing canter trot transition last night with just my shoulders and seat, no hands at all so its clearly working.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Thanks, really interesting perspectives everyone. As difficult as it is I'm getting very good results with riding G forwards more. People who've watched are really impressed by his paces and they weren't bad before, just need to re-educate ourselves now that its never, ever acceptable and know that the rest of it all come back in time. Did an amazing canter trot transition last night with just my shoulders and seat, no hands at all so its clearly working.

Oooh interesting, the old lady who trains me (when I can afford lessons) is very big on this, imagine if you will a crazy wannabe racehorse being cantered around, completely in balance, and then performing a near perfect transition to trot will no pull on the reins? I tell you I it is an amazing feeling utterly amazing.

Good luck and keep going forwards

 

[willtowin]

Personally, being overbent is a pet hate of mine. When watching my niece at a very low level and local dressage test, I was surprised yet horrified to see the amount of overbent horses at this level, there heads were down but there hocks were trailing, there was no power, impulsion etc which you don't expect at grassroots level, but when discussing with a judge later, she said she'd far rather see them going round like llamas, but FORWARD. Forward is definitely the foundation to add to. And obviously people at higher levels should know better!

 

[Booboos]

I think that there are about a hundred different positions a horse can work in and each one demonstrates different weaknesses and strengths.

For me the worst BTV is a horse that has an uphill frame, is tight in the neck, curled in the pole and fails to engage from behind.

I do think a horse can be BTV and be forwards and working from behind, e.g. a powerfully moving horse which is still too young may bring the whole head BTV but this is totally different from above. Of course it should be penalised in a competition setting but I don't see it as a terrible weakness, more a phase to grow out of.

Working long and low may also involve the head being a bit BTV, while it would be better if the nose was further out again I don't see this as a cardinal sin in terms of working in.

 

[charlie76]

I agree that a horse can be BTV and still working from behind, esp if the horse is lacking in balance. I think that there is sometimes a reason for riding the horse slightly BTV, ( ie when its trying to bog off with you at a show or spooking like a prat!) but I would also agree ( as I own a horse that was ridded BTV all of the time before I got him) that it much more difficult to correct a horse who goes BTV than a hollow one..
This is my horse BTV in both pics but in the top one he is tight and evading where as in the botton he is much more relaxed and swinging:

and then much better:

 

[Booboos]

I think Charlie76's photos make a really good point. If you start with a horse which goes like pic 1 (either through previous incorrect riding or because this is how naturally it likes to carry itself), pic 2 is a massive improvement and a stage you would expect it to go through before it reaches the (lovely) pic 3.

 

[B-B]

The answer would depend on what is happening over all..the bigger picture.

So not to focus the head but to see if the horse is relaxed supple and swinging over its back, at least tracking up - better over, and accepting the contact - not held by force or has dropped behind.

This would be the horse stretching over its top line like a bow and not to be confused with a horse balanced on its forehand with its hocks in another country.

The horse should then be able to come up and out to the contact when asked.

 

[PapaFrita]

I watched a demo of Carl Hester's and he said that if the horse was working well from behind he wasn't that fussed if it dropped BTV.

 

[PolarSkye]

I watched a demo of Carl Hester's and he said that if the horse was working well from behind he wasn't that fussed if it dropped BTV.

This! As horses learn to engage behind and work over their backs they may compensate by breaking at the poll or going BTV . . . it's then up to the rider to begin to push that nose out and get them going more correctly. Yes, if a horse is BTV but his back is hollow and his hind legs/hocks are in the next county then it's incorrect, but to expect a young/unschooled/developing horse to go 100% correctly all at once is setting a high bar! Most ridden/pleasure horses need to learn HOW to move correctly and a little like us riders that may mean compensating somewhere (e.g. BTV) while they figure out how to do the rest.

And, yes, I do believe horses can go BTV and STILL work over their backs/engage their hind quarters.

P

 

[H.Hayward]

When competing and schooling the head position should be on the vertical to show the horse is carrying its own head and is light in the hand, showing its working from behind not pulling from the front. However to warm up my warmblood mare before a competition or at home I do work her deep and flex her neck (not overly of course), even though shes overbent shes stretching and warming up her muscles along her back and side so when i do ask her to rock back, work from behind and lift her head position she's ready to do so. It also helps her to become very easy to maneuver, quick off the aids and light in the hands because of all the stretching and flexing. I think it depends on the type of horse you have and how you use it, in my opinion it can be a very useful schooling tool.

 

[Baggybreeches]

I think the difference is when a horse is permanently overbent, or momentarily and progressively through a specific training routine. In an ideal world they wouldn't be hence I believe it should be corrected, but in the examples given above I can see the reasoning.