marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Just wondered 'cause still seeing docked obviously non working dogs.
Is docking of non-working dogs still illegal?
- Thread starter marmalade76
- Start date
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Cheers, it's quite clear. So how do people get round it still? AFAIA the French Bulldog has never been a working breed yet I know of two of these dogs with docked tails, they're not old dogs, either.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
Frenchies aren't a docked breed, they just have a very small nubbin, they are born that was as far as I am aware?
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Really? Cripes.
blackcob
🖖
Blog about French bulldog tails (or lack thereof!) - http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/french-bulldogs-from-nose-to-er.html
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
It is such a shame because temperament wise they really are lovely little dogs
blackcob
🖖
As to how others get around it, there's not really anything to stop a breeder from presenting the vet with sufficient evidence to dock legally then going on to sell a docked puppy to a non-working home. Guidance notes here are quite useful: http://www.bva-awf.org.uk/sites/bva-awf.org.uk/files/user/tail_docking_guidance.pdf
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
This is so flawed and badly written and directed, as to be all but worthless. The Law isn't clearly described and it remains as no more that 'guide-lines'.
Alec.
danda
Well-Known Member
I have a French bulldog and confirm they are born with (very) short tails.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
The KC really do annoy me sometimes. They seem to encourage dogs coming in and out of fashion.
Echo24
Well-Known Member
Tail docking is not illegal in Ireland so some unscrupulous breeders dock them and ship them over and try to sell them here.
DiNozzo
Well-Known Member
My Yorkie was docked- classed as a working dog because he was a stud
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
The bit that I don't understand, is this;
There is also a ban on the showing of docked dogs (all dogs docked after the commencement date of 6 April/28 March) at events to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee.
———
Where is the benefit to the public in precluding dogs with docked tails and from a show which those who would spectate have paid to enter? Considering that all those who spectate at the annual Game Fairs have paid to enter, it seems that working tests and trials are excluded from the Law despite there being a paying gallery.
I wonder who the steering groups are who dream up these contradictory and daft conditions.
Thanks for that RTE.
Alec.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
This is a crazy part of the rule It means that dogs that are docked legally at the big shows like Crufts, so many don't come from abroad and the gamekeepers classes are poorly supported. Some big shows have got round the ruling by charging for car parking rather than entry for the public I believe.
DiNozzo that is crazy . If all stud dogs were allowed to be docked because they are "working"then the show rings would be full of docked dogs of every breed that were customarily docked. Either someone convinced the vet who docked your yorkie that it was a working terrier, or he was docked illegally if he was done after the docking ban came in.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
You raise interesting points, especially concerning those dogs which would be normally docked and arrive here from the Continent.
I suppose M_M that were the ruling left open so that there could be showing exclusions, or not, then those who are participating would have to consider whether to show under a specific judge and they'd have to take in to account his/her preference for 'Docked' or 'Entire'. Certainly within Gundog Field Trials, I don't know of one Judge who would do anything but mark down a dog (breed/type specific) which has an entire tail.
Alec.
I suppose M_M that were the ruling left open so that there could be showing exclusions, or not, then those who are participating would have to consider whether to show under a specific judge and they'd have to take in to account his/her preference for 'Docked' or 'Entire'. Certainly within Gundog Field Trials, I don't know of one Judge who would do anything but mark down a dog (breed/type specific) which has an entire tail.
Alec.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
My post didn't make sense, serves me right for typing on phone. What I should have said was that dogs that are docked legally CANNOT be shown at Crufts.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
My older springer is docked, being from working lines. The whole litter will be done, who knows if all 12 pups will be bought by working homes?
galaxy
Well-Known Member
My 9 month gsp pup is legally docked and no, I'll never work him. But my 6 year old gsp has a full tail and I've lost count of the number of times he has split his tail just on normal works. GSPs have very hard tails with little cover and protection, it is in their best interest on welfare ground IMO to be docked.
I found out last week that the docking rule does not apply to agility dogs competing at crufts (good!) because they are deemed to be working! Lol! How daft! I'd love to know how many dogs have split a tail doing agility! Daft illogical rules......
I found out last week that the docking rule does not apply to agility dogs competing at crufts (good!) because they are deemed to be working! Lol! How daft! I'd love to know how many dogs have split a tail doing agility! Daft illogical rules......
amy_b
Well-Known Member
This is a bug bear of mine because I am now the proud owner of a docked, 7 month old Viszla who will work and show. Obviously I am aware we cant got o Crufts but I wanted a duel purpose dog and to show her and get some critique, also I think it is good experience for them
What I don't understand is - I cant remember the exact criteria of what qualifies you to dock a dogs tail but I am going to guess along the lines of a shotgun licence being one, and a letter from your gamekeeper or you are a gamekeeper..something like that being another, then why can you not use the same as proof that your dog is a working dog and therefore be allowed to show at the paying shows. To me this is perfectly logical and the only reason they don't is do do with the 'image' and public attendance.
What I don't understand is - I cant remember the exact criteria of what qualifies you to dock a dogs tail but I am going to guess along the lines of a shotgun licence being one, and a letter from your gamekeeper or you are a gamekeeper..something like that being another, then why can you not use the same as proof that your dog is a working dog and therefore be allowed to show at the paying shows. To me this is perfectly logical and the only reason they don't is do do with the 'image' and public attendance.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
amy_b, I'd suggest that you take up the issue with the Kennel Club, though I wouldn't hold out much hope. You're pushing a door which is already open with those who's daily lives centre around dogs, but the KC? Too much PC I suspect! The KC are never given to rhyme or reason, it seems. 
Alec.
Alec.
Lanky Loll
Well-Known Member
And this is why for some breeds I do still believe in docking. My non-working Working Cocker is 3/4 docked, she was bought from a working home and we had originally planned on training her as a gundog but unfortunately her breathing is too noisy when she's excited apparently. Her tail is constantly on the go and she would be a prime candidate for it splitting. You have to really look to see that she's been done but it's enough to prevent this and the breeder prefers to do it as he can't guarantee which pups will go to working/non-working homes.
The KC is ridiculously short sighted at times
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
I suppose it depends a lot on your vet's stance, and yours as a breeder? When we had a litter from our ESS, we already had a lot of interested locally as she was out working locally. We had two family friends who wanted them as pets, and therefore we had all chipped but only half of the litter docked, our vet asked for letters from employers/reputable references to confirm people who were buying pups were using them to work. I'm not sure whether that was my vet being anal and covering himself - it seems sensible but easily manipulated as working ESS are as popular as pets as working dogs.
satinbaze
Well-Known Member
The KC is ridiculously short sighted at times[/QUOTE]
It is not the kennel club that made the laws regarding docking but the government enforced by DEFRA
It is not the kennel club that made the laws regarding docking but the government enforced by DEFRA
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
It is not the kennel club that made the laws regarding docking but the government enforced by DEFRA[/QUOTE]
Was it the Government / DEFRA who decided that dogs couldn't be shown at venues where the public paid to attend?
Alec.
blackcob
🖖
From KC website
From the Animal Welfare Act explanatory memorandum (signed by a Defra minister)
From the Animal Welfare Act explanatory memorandum (signed by a Defra minister)
Shantara
Well-Known Member
Accidentally clicked on this thread, but had a read anyway. What do you mean by tail splitting? That sounds painful D:
Lanky Loll
Well-Known Member
Chan - it's when either by wagging it too hard or banging it on an object whilst wagging the skin splits - occasionally there can be bone damage as well and it bleeds like mad.
Alec - the attitude to showing was exactly what I meant thank you! Whilst I don't agree with docking for purely cosmetic reasons there are several breeds where medical and/or working life make it recommended. Why should they then be penalised?
Alec - the attitude to showing was exactly what I meant thank you! Whilst I don't agree with docking for purely cosmetic reasons there are several breeds where medical and/or working life make it recommended. Why should they then be penalised?