Is ET the way forward for Rare Breeds?

Here is my short answer: yes, and for some, the only chance of survival outside of cloning.

Here's a longer, more rambley answer:

Costs, there's a bit of a variation.
a) recipient mare. Ideally you need multiples synchronised (happy joy if you got more than one embryo to take from one flush but this would be highly unusual). Do you own the recipient mare or pay the hire fee (roughly £1500 a pop for the one that carries). Personally I'd buy mine, tb mares are being given away. Recipient mare should ideally be of similar size and build as affects fetus size a little.
b) using a specialist vet. You really should search out the best for the handling of the embryos. Most do it as a very quick turnaround. However some send a chilled embryo (as one would semen), or even freeze an embryo. Obviously as they are more complex structures the potential for damage is much higher than sperm and there's only one of them. So, that has an impact on overheads and options. Also we a re a bit rubbish with equine embryos at this stage. I have some figures I'll dig out on this, but it's much less successful than with cattle, despite the structures involved being so similar.
c) ET (esp in the proposed situation) will often involve a donor mare of less than ideal fertility and very often frozen semen. That's two factors against. What can be done to improve the fertility of the donor mare and the health of the recipient? Recent evidence points to the use of hypbaric oxygen therapy (sometimes abb. HBOT) as potentially increasing fertility (also of stallions in both quality and count). If you're spending a lot of time and money or the mare is older you might want to consider this. Along with use of lights etc so that the procedure is done at the peak of the breeding season. All mares should have full medical work up.
c) method of insemination. With all this effort it would make sense it would make sense to go for deep intra-uterine insertion/ deep horn insertion. As this requires palpitation it must be done by a vet (in UK) so again, a cost increase over an AI technician.

Obviously so much depends on if you can/ will send your donor to a separate facility to be synchronised with recipients also. The basic flush, search, transfer comes in at about £600.

Incidentally the defra guideline for embryo transport might affect decision on this if you want to send abroad though I don't see why you would in this case.
Also: some breeds do not recognise ET, some insist on certain level of qualification of parents to allow it (ANCCE for example), some insist on a specific breed of recipient mare (Akhal Teke, fair enough, don't want those in clydesdales!)

I believe there was a CB breeder who tried to implement a largely ET breeding program one year but got very few foals on the ground as a result of it.

Additional point: it's possible to harvest viable sperm from amputated testes. Might this be something for the future to consider.... ie ovaries on ice once the mare is judged to be incapable of breeding.
Ovary transplant is still at embryonic (ha!) stage although may have future implications.

Sorry I am not very good at organising my information in this stupid tiny text box!
 
popsdosh said:
My reservation would be that Rare breeds already suffer with a limited gene pool which may cause issues!
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If they are to retain the genetic diversity then it is critical to make varied crosses available at this point in time. The CB society has highlighted desirable crosses to retain diversity which is a pioneering study that hopefully others will follow.
Also some breeds will occasionally allow a selected stallion displaying desirable and breed conforming characteristics in to diversify and strengthen the gene pool. I believe there is a history of this with trakehners and shagya arabs for example.

In terms of varied crosses the absolute ideal would be that every mare at some point spends a season producing embryos which are frozen for posterity! However financially that is a fantasy.
I know twemlows do a lot to promote rare breeds, perhaps if other services/ providers were available at a discount to breeders we might see an increase in numbers and retain the diversity.
 
Rollin said:
I cannot find out how to delete the messages I don't want!! Some I need to keep.
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On the far right of each message, is a tiny box, click on it and it will be seen as a blue tick. Scroll down to the bottom and it will say 'Selected Messages'. Click on that and then again, scroll down to the bottom of that panel and it will say 'Proceed'. Click on that, and the 'ticked' messages will disappear! Gone!!

Alec.
 
bakewell said:
If they are to retain the genetic diversity then it is critical to make varied crosses available at this point in time. The CB society has highlighted desirable crosses to retain diversity which is a pioneering study that hopefully others will follow.

…….. .
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Vital, I'd say! With ALL breeds of animals, certainly those with restricted or limited gene pools, the short-sighted attitude of those who persevere as purists is crippling their own interests. ALL breeds have evolved and developed over the last few centuries, but now they seem to have stopped, stagnated if you like. The Thoroughbred for instance, probably the numerically largest of any breed of horse, has a gene pool which is massive. With the Cleveland Bay and with dogs the Deerhound for instance, the available gene pools are so minuscule, that the Breeds are consuming themselves. Judicious out-crosses which will almost certainly reinvigorate both the intended purpose of the animal concerned and its future, and by so doing allow the 'Breed' to make progress, again is vital.

My only 'real' experience of breeding any animal lies within sheep. There was a time when The Norfolk Horn, as a sheep, was ubiquitous all over east Anglia. They died out, literally, all bar one aged and decrepit ram. They died out because they were commercially useless and that happened because breeders were so tunnel-visioned that they refused to allow the breed to continue its development. the breed has been re-invented, and their still useless, from a commercial standpoint! Judicious crossing with the vastly improved Continental breeds of sheep, whilst breeding for 'type' rather than 'pedigree' could perhaps be a way forward.

All of those Breed Societies which represent those Breeds of animals which are in decline, need to open their eyes, and consider their purpose.

Alec.

Ets, Rollin, it's only expensive when we fail! Research and the selection of competent technicians is the way forward, and not every assurance given should be taken at face value! a.
 
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I guess tbh there's also an argument for grading up/ in to be possible as it is with CB and ID.
I wonder if anyone has the resources to actively pursue a line for grading up. I think it's a 15-20 year job though so you'd have to hope they didn't change the rules in the meantime!
 
Considering Embryo Transfer, I'm wondering if there's enough interest to enquire of Admin if we could have a 'Sticky' at the head of this section. There are those on this forum who have extensive experience, and certainly those who've asked for opinions and advice.

There are many aspects of ET which should be discussed and questioned. Correctly carried out, with ALL the factors being considered, and with EVERY box being ticked, it may well be the way forward, for some. I've been down the road of ET, with both success and failure and again, it's a relatively straightforward process, providing that every consideration is applied and providing that those who write out the cheques make the vital decisions, for themselves!

Perhaps for those with specific interest, it might be an idea for them to add their names here.

Alec.
 
Santa's-a-scam said:
Perhaps for those with specific interest, it might be an idea for them to add their names here.

Alec.
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Am very interested, most practical experience (AI/ ET) is with cattle/ pigs which has a few critical differences (mainly regarding induced ovulation and ovarian hyperstimulation effects of hormone therapy due to mares ovary structure, and equine low fertility) but the overall picture is similar.

I also only have quite specific breed knowledge horse wise so not up to speed on others.

I don't know much at all about WB/ TB/ sporthorse policies, and I only have a slim grasp of market forces and financial viability in these markets so would really welcome others' input. As far as I am aware these are the sectors showing profit margins? Presumably they also have the most advanced research/ techniques/ know when to use them.
 
Sorry Bakewell, still not sorted out my PM box!!!

I was interested after a visit to Virginia, to see CB classes at a show. One breeder told me he had cut his stallion, had semen and frozen embryos stored.

The Cleveland Bay needs 45 foals a year for the stud book to survive. Currently fewer than 30 foals per year, 30% to overseas members and a number of people telling me, they won't breed another pure bred CB.

Will it be like the Dodo, one day we will say we are the reason for this creatures extinction. I grieve that everyone seems to want a fine boned athlete with lots of TB, when so many of the top warmbloods today would be nothing without Cleveland Bays and Shagya Arabs. Look at Richi Rich's pedigree - how many Shagya lines can you find.

As Joanie said "You don't know what you have till its gone"
 
Rollin said:
Sorry Bakewell, still not sorted out my PM box!!!

I was interested after a visit to Virginia, to see CB classes at a show. One breeder told me he had cut his stallion, had semen and frozen embryos stored.

The Cleveland Bay needs 45 foals a year for the stud book to survive. Currently fewer than 30 foals per year, 30% to overseas members and a number of people telling me, they won't breed another pure bred CB.

Will it be like the Dodo, one day we will say we are the reason for this creatures extinction. I grieve that everyone seems to want a fine boned athlete with lots of TB, when so many of the top warmbloods today would be nothing without Cleveland Bays and Shagya Arabs. Look at Richi Rich's pedigree - how many Shagya lines can you find.

As Joanie said "You don't know what you have till its gone"
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It's understandable. It's taken me months to work out how to put up a profile pic. I don't really like the internet!

At 30 foals a year, how long does the breed have?
 
Rollin, I can't speak to the question regarding rare breeds as I don't have any experience, but in terms of the costs:

Here are some indicative costs for one experienced ET centre:

http://twemlows.co.uk/artificial-ins...nsfer-charges/

There are of course others in the UK who provide this service, this is just one example. I think I paid about £660 for each ET attempt, this didn't include the stallion stud fee, AI charges from my stud vets; or livery fees at my stud. It also didn't include my diesel costs for transporting the mare in person to the ET centre for both flushes, I could have had my stud vets remove the embryos and send them to the ET centre, but I wanted to avoid the embryos having to be transported outside of the mare.

I had two attempts, neither of which was successful. The donor mare and the stallion did their jobs fabulously, and 3 embryos were collected across the two attempts. The first one was removed probably a day too soon (it can be difficult for the ET centre to pinpoint the perfect day/time to remove the embryo), the second two were removed at the right time and both were good quality, highly graded embryos but unfortunately neither took in either recipient mare. Just one of those things, for some reason (weather??) apparently the success rates are higher in Australia than in the UK.
 
Hello everyone. Apologies, I started this thread but workload has taken over!!!

Chief cook, groom, bottle washer - you got it.

I will return to this thread in a few days as I think it is very interesting.

Happy Christmas everyone.
 
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