Is green grass now the horses' enemy?

I also wonder whether the fact that in certain parts the ground is getting firmer and people are starting to do more work and therefore there is a higher incidence of hoof health deteriorating, particularly in barefoot horses.

On the subject of poor hoof health, my old pony was pts aged 40 years and the only ailments he had suffered in all that time was strangles and two incidents of mild concussion lameness after bolting on the road. He was shod all his life but had one white hoof which would crack if his shoe came off. He wouldn't show any lameness in this time and would continue work with three shoes on!! As soon as the shoe was replaced and a bit of hoof conditioner went on it righted itself. He was in no way unhealthy hence his good old age when he finally went, so I would hazard a guess that it was not infact 'toxins' that were causing his crumbly hoof, but that his hoof was more supported and stronger with a shoe on.
 
You're confusing 'footy' with crumbling hoofs..they're not the same thing. Incidentally my new horse came shod on all 4. I had the backs removed and the hoofs were cracked and looked poor, 6 weeks later after the farrier trimmed them again his backs are perfect with no shoes no more cracking. The firm ground has no effect other than to strengthen unshod horses generally .
 
OP said she was talking about poor hoof growth/condition.

In my experience there are many horses who can cope with being barefoot without the issue of poor hoof growth/crumbling, and many who can't.

I think too many people are getting caught up in the whole barefoot is the be all and end all because it's natural and losing sight of whether it is in fact the best thing for their horse's feet. In many cases it may be, but I have seen some people on HHO post that they are extremely reluctant to shoe their horses because they don't feel it's natural or because they feel shoes 'mask' potential lami even when their horses have never shown any signs or have any indication of it in the past whatsoever.

Interestingly there seem to be an awful lot of threads on here relating to poor hoof growth when barefoot compared to shod.
 
Moomin the hoof problems that you are describing with crumbling feet, soft and thin soles and inability to cope with hard ground are all a diet issue, sometimes related to undiagnosed metabolic conditions that predispose the diet issues.

Funny how hard ground and spring grass so often arrive together, but that people who are not aware of how crucial the diet is always blame the hard ground for the footiness and never the grass.

The best thing for the horse feet (and the rest of its body) is to sort out the diet issues, not put shoes on. For some horses this is too difficult, for some owners this is impossible or unacceptable, and of course in those cases horses should be shod for their own welfare.
 
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Moomin1 said:
Interestingly there seem to be an awful lot of threads on here relating to poor hoof growth when barefoot compared to shod.
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Barefoot feet tend to grow at up to twice the rate of a shod foot on the same horse. Take a look at the pictures on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com and see just how fast the nail holes disappear and event lines grow down.

General belief is that this is because there is a higher blood supply to the unshod foot.
 
I think its the way horses are kept on monoculture paddocks in many places. Ours have lots of grass in the summer, and are fenced onto smaller bits - but the sward contains lots of herbs, at least 5 grass species - not just the dairy field ryegrass, and lots of herbs with nettles thistles. They also enjoy the bramble at the side of the field, along with all the goodies in the hedge.

Our 28yo TB is unshod in the wet months, but he has to have shoes in the summer, as with the dry ground his feet crumble, crack and he is very uncomfortable, having abscesses in both feet at the same time in the past. With shoes for 4/5 months of the year he has happy, and can go out with little in hand hacks. This is how we manage him.
 
cptrayes said:
Moomin the hoof problems that you are describing with crumbling feet, soft and thin soles and inability to cope with hard ground are all a diet issue, sometimes related to undiagnosed metabolic conditions that predispose the diet issues.

Funny how hard ground and spring grass so often arrive together, but that people who are not aware of how crucial the diet is always blame the hard ground for the footiness and never the grass.

The best thing for the horse feet (and the rest of its body) is to sort out the diet issues, not put shoes on. For some horses this is too difficult, for some owners this is impossible or unacceptable, and of course in those cases horses should be shod for their own welfare.
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I understand what you are saying, but I think that people are still all too quick to automatically assume barefoot MUST be best for every horse. If thin soles are a result of bad diet which affects the rest of the body, I cannot go anyway to explaining how my mare is perfectly healthy, lively, sprightely with a lovely gleaming coat, hooves as strong as steel with not a chip in them, yet she is crippled if I take her shoes off? My horse shows no signs of any ill health and lives off a completely fibre diet.

Also, as said earlier, my old pony died at 40 years and was shod til his dying day. He had only three non-routine vet visits in his life, and his feet were very good, yet if a shoe fell off, his foot would start to crumble, only to strengthen again when the shoe went on. I find it hard to believe that my horse must have had 'toxins' floating around his body all those years yet lived until that ripe old age.
 
Moomin1 said:
OP said she was talking about poor hoof growth/condition
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I'm sorry but I'm confused....where does the OP state she was talking about poor hoof growth/condition?

Spyda said:
It used to be said that a good dose of Dr Grass would do wonders for many a horse. More recently, I've been reading on here that grass is to be limited. Not just Spring grass, but any green grass - because of the sugars. Does this mean in years to come all our horses will be confined to bare earth paddocks and soaked hay???
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Stencilface said:
Ditto Moomin, I think there are worse things than well looked after shod feet :rolleyes:
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I agree - but sometimes shoes aren't always the answer to all problems either.

Surely looking holistically at the horse is better than just pointing at the feet?
 
Oberon said:
I agree - but sometimes shoes aren't always the answer to all problems either.

Surely looking holistically at the horse is better than just pointing at the feet?
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Of course, but if the horse is happy, healthy and has one small problem, why change everything to fix one thing?
 
Moomin1 said:
:)....
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LOL - I misread the OP about 12 times
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. I'm tired;)

Well, in that case my first post was in reference to footy horses - as in sore on surfaces after being on grass.

Poor hoof growth itself, is found secondary to lack of stimulation and mineral imbalance.

Hope this clarifies my posts :)
 
Agree that what is now considered "normal" bodyweight would once have been "show condition" (somewhat like people.....). Just look at old photos of hunters and racehorses, nowadays people would be calling welfare if they see a rib....So many horses are coming into spring grass far too FAT.
 
Regarding the quality and types of grasses that now cover most grazing fields and paddocks, I would like to bet it will be vastly different from what it was 50 years or even 25 years ago. Land is in short supply and so fields and paddocks have got smaller and I suspect some stronger more vigorous varieties will have survived the more intense grazing at the expense of other more delicate varieties. Perhaps that vigour produces more fructans?
I have read that land in general has gradually become depleted of magnesium and therefore the grasses are low in this mineral. This could explain why we have to supplement Mg in calming supplements for horses and also to help combat health problems with EMS.
Also, I remember hearing a tv report some time ago on the cereals grown for human food products being low in Magnesium, and some health related articles have linked the increase in allergies and behavioural problems in children to this deficiency. There was some discussion at the time about whether human food should be supplemented with Mg.
Some lucky horses are fit and healthy despite these deficiencies and also some are lucky to not have any issues with shoes all their lives, unfortunately they are in the minority nowadays.
 
Chris Pollitt's work is flawed and the fructans model that he espouses doesn't tell the story at all.

Fertile, monoculture pasture is bad. What our horses need is what we think of as poor quality grazing with a variety of grasses, plants etc. Unfortunately it takes about 20 years to reverse the damage we're causing with fertilisation so it's not something that we can change overnight unless you can get (rare) permission for turf stripping.

I had mine on pasture that was 10 years post fertilisation and they did well even turned out 24/7. Unfortunately we lost that and are now on pasture that is only about 4 years in. The difference is shocking and we now have to stable overnight even though our practises and exercise regime are the same. On the '10 year' pasture there was no sign of LGL but in this '4 year' pasture we've seen the signs of LGL already :( We want to do a track system to limit grass whilst encouraging them to move but the YO isn't happy with that :(

Interestingly, but sadly, cows are getting laminitis now because of the over fertile pasture :(
 
My horse will never make it out onto our fields adlib again. I just don't believe in a one size fits all answer to horse keeping, everything is about the individual owner and horse. :)
 
Grass is definitely bad for my horse - she is allergic to ryegrass.
And I mean really, really allergic.
What I wouldn't give for some rough, heather covered hill to turn her out on.
S :D
 
The poor man who rents me my field is used to looking after it carefully, mowing it, and seeing swards of green stuff. He's agonising at the moment about how slowly my summer field is recovering. I have to keep explaining gently to him that I feed supplements to try to counteract the effects of his pasture. Even my winter field has got enough growth on it to stop my nags eating hay! When I've wrecked the grazing for a couple more years I'll feel more relaxed.
 
I haven't fertilised mine or topped it for 20 years and I'm getting some very disapproving looks from my farmer neighbours! I had less trouble once I stopped taking sheep in the summer too and let it just grow a foot long.
 
cptrayes said:
I haven't fertilised mine or topped it for 20 years and I'm getting some very disapproving looks from my farmer neighbours! I had less trouble once I stopped taking sheep in the summer too and let it just grow a foot long.
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That's interesting, why do you think removing the sheep/long grass has a beneficial effect?
 
Deseado said:
That's interesting, why do you think removing the sheep/long grass has a beneficial effect?
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My theory on this is that the sheep keep the grass short and so increase the fructans; they also fertilise as they go. :D

I only have a small paddock, but I still put sheep on in the summer, I find that when I don't the sward loses density and becomes straggly, so that when it is grazed off in winter it becomes a mud bath.
 
Our grass gets fertilised at our yard but that is because you have 25 horses turned out on little more than 10 acres, not ideal but not something i can change. I'm lucky in the fact that my horse has never had lami (touch wood) but although she puts on weight she's not one to gorge, she gets to a certian weight then stops (obviously self conscious :p). Now she's out of work I'll obviously have to keep a close eye on her but I think a lot of it is to do with management.
This is the biggest I've let her get (angle doesn't do her any favours)
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And this is what I like to keep her at (but she was very fit when this photo was taken :p)
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laura_nash said:
I think it depends on the kind of grass.

Unfortunately all to many of us only have access to "recently re-seeded with a ryegrass mix designed for dairy cow" grass, hence all the "grass is evil" threads you see!
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This. Grass has been developed for high yield which isn't suitable for horses in general. On top of that it's often fertilized with high nitrate ferts year in year out.

I'm a bit weird and am actually wonder if these high yield grasses aren't good for cows guts and feet either. :eek: :D Laminitis is also common in cattle. I'm pretty sure cow pats aren't normal, it's just what we see most of the time. Cows observed by a friend in high pasture in Montana passed formed droppings. High cereal and sugar feeds don't help either. My ponderings will give you all a good laugh anyway. :D
Wonder what free ranging Bison droppings are like? :D

Oh yes and we are obsessed with what fields look like. They have to be nice single species bowling greens.
 
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Deseado said:
That's interesting, why do you think removing the sheep/long grass has a beneficial effect?
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touchstone said:
My theory on this is that the sheep keep the grass short and so increase the fructans; they also fertilise as they go. :D

I only have a small paddock, but I still put sheep on in the summer, I find that when I don't the sward loses density and becomes straggly, so that when it is grazed off in winter it becomes a mud bath.
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Exactly my theory touchstone. Fortunately I keep 3 horses on 12 acres, so mudbaths aren't an issue for me except in patches they like to roll in :eek:

Deseado, short grass is stressed and stressed grass has been shown to be higher in sugars. Long grass is less sugary, especially at the top where they are eating it.
 
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