Is it advisable to use a dutch gag on a 4 year old?

blacksabbeth

blacksabbeth

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Hi i have noticed a lot of people talking about dutch gags is it advisable to use on a 4 year old or have they just not got a very good reputation as a bit?cheers.
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I struggled for years with my strong hunter, I had a miserable time in a snaffle when she was 4, she just dragged me around the hunting field. Eventually I conceded that she did need a stronger bit. I changed to a pelham then a waterford gag and life became pleasant again! Much better to use a strong bit gently than have to haul on a snaffle. You can also use the snaffle rein normally but the high leverage rein in an emergency!
 
Not sure that I would use any gag on a four year old tbh, although I can understnd using it out hunting. It would de0end on what you are doing and how much 'education' your horse has had. I would try using either a mullen mouth or a comfort snaffle. Having said that a pelham with a fairly 'soft' mouthpiece would be my preferance over a gag.
 
I would work up gradually; a pelham is a big junp from a plain snaffle. Try a dropped cheek snaffle first which has a little gentle leverage, or maybe a french link in case he doesn't like the nut cracker action of a normal snaffle-that will often do the trick.
 
Sorry I meant hanging cheek! My little mare is ridden in a hanging cheek french link and it's a kind but effective bit.
 
What bit is the horse in atm??I personally do not like the dutch gags,seem to be a fashion accessory
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,as are grackles,not saying yours would be,but have you tried a french link?My lad can get quite strong but he respects a french link
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Ok ill try that,i must admit for a 4 year old she behaves exceptionally well,i have only ever used this bit a couple of times and found she does go quite well but i dont want to give her a hard mouth,shes got plenty more years yet.lol.and even then still i want her mouth to be soft.
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no thats what she is in now,shes ok but as shes getting older ive noticed at times she does become strong,so just out of curiosity but i dont want to make the wrong decision.
 
I have found that a horse either has a hard or soft mouth from a young age and that's it. My strong hunter was strong from age 4 and is now rising 20 no difference! My homebred 16.2hh IDx has been in a happy mouth full cheek snaffle since he was 4 and is still in the same bit at 9, including when hunting/XC!!
 
Sorry did you mean my sig or hadfos'? If mine, she is my rising 20 16hh hunter whom I have hunted since age 4. The dam is Connemara x TB and the sire an ID cob. She is amazingly athletic, never known such a sound athletic horse and still sound now! I would put a stronger bit in when hunting for the first time, but practice with it first..
 
hadfos,but doesnt matter.Thats fantastic that youve had your horse that long did you break her yourself?I have been told that any connemara or connemar x is a fantastic jumper is this true?thank you so much for the advice i really appreciate it,oh and what age did you take your hunting?
 
Thanks. Yes Lucy is a brilliant jumper, very agile-she has never fallen (touch wood); we have jumped open team chase hedges, five bar gates, ditches and very big rails. Last season she jumped a 5 foot ,hung, iron gate with a wire fence behind it, out of a hock deep bog!! I bought her just broken and took her hunting straight away, we jumped an iron gate on her first day. I had very little braking though. We still have the odd moment when she carts me into things I dont really fancy jumping! Hope the advice helps, let us know how it goes. Fraid it's all trial and error.
 
That's sweet of you but I've just bumbled along like we all have to, learning as we go; also I was lucky to find a horse who was a natural jumper. I actually had to learn to ride my home bred boy as he wasn't such a natural and needed help! Good luck and have fun, don't waste time worrying-just go for it!
 
The thing is when we back a youngster they do not have a mouth so to speak. It is up to us to 'make' it. I would be very wary of using any strong bit on a youngster and would do a lot more work in the school tbh.
 
Another vote for the French link hanging cheek snaffle, Captain can be an incredibly difficult horse(reaing, napping and spinning) but he goes nicely in that, I think that it is schooling rather than a stronger bit generally which will help. However, Fany is in a mullen pelham, she has the greatest temprement, lovely ride, just needed more brakes and steering as she is incredibly strong when she wants to head for home. She is now being schooled and hopefully she will be back in a snaffle by this summer at the lastest.
Certainly I would not use a Dutch gag on a 4yo. They seem to be the new fashion along with flashes and grackles. They all seem to be an alternative to schooling.
 
My just 5 year old is too strong to hunt in a snaffle so I hunt him in a KK universal and depending on how he feels on the day either use the snaffle ring or the bottom ring. Its a nice bit with a lozenge and he loves it. I wouldn't use a dutch gag on him because I think it would be too much although I quite happily use a lozenge 2 ring dutch gag on my TB who is a bugger and thinks hunting is a return to the racetrack until he gets tired!!
 
The trouble with dutch gags is that they are far too often used by people who have no idea how they work and ride them with a single rein on the bottom ring, I hate to see pelhams used this way too.

Personally I would not put either of these bits on a 4yo, as someone has already said, you have to 'make' their mouths at that age. The hanging cheek is fairer on the horse but be aware that they can learn to lean on it.
 
Agree with Sirena. I would rather use a pelham on a 4yr old over a dutch gag, but thats because I make no secret of the fact I hate dutch gags!!
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However, we do make the mouth on a 4yr old. Putting a stronger bit in may make them "feel" nice but won't be teaching them to take a contact properly and carry themselves correctly.

If you need a stronger bit for hunting etc just in case, I would use a cheltenham gag with the same mouthpiece as their snaffle with 2 reins, or a universal with 2 reins. This means you can ride them on the snaffle, but have the emergency breaks too!!

Also agree that hanging cheeks can encourage a horse to drop behind the bridle or lean on it. I would stick to an eggbut, full cheek or loose ring to start with, again to encourage the horse to take the bit forward and down
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I think people use them because they give a 'soft, light in hand feel' however this is completely fake from the point of view of the horse being soft and is just because of the fact that there is no direct contact with the horses mouth.

Fwiw i do use one, on my 17yo! but only for hacking as he spooks a damn site less in it than anything else he completely takes the P if I ever try to put him in a snaffle for it again!
 
Well, I am going to go against the grain here as I think it depends entirely on the horse, it's mouth and what it's preference is!

I would rather have control of a horse without having to fight and saw on the mouth if and when i ened to stop.

When I got my 4 yo he's started BSJA and was ridden in a Pelham. However, I am not a fan of the whole curb chain and also had previosuly had a pony who just used to lean on a pelham and run and another pony who, although strong totally freaked out the minute he felt the curb!

I tried numerous types of bits and mouthpieces but my horse was happiest in the Dutch gag on the middle (second to bottom ring). He is a leaner as is built a bit on the forehand and the gag helps me keep him more on his hocks.

I have tried various pelhams and tom thumb, loose ring, french link, Dr Bristol etc etc but have always reverted back to the gag. He only needs the lower ring for jumping and xc really and if I'm doing dressage I use a handing cheek snaffle.

To be honest though i think a lot of it is to do with the mouth piece as well as the poll action. I have the waterford style mouthpiece in mine as I don't think my horse likes the nutcracker action of a standard bit.

All horses are individuals,some have wider mouths, thicker tongues and lips etc anmd less room for certain bits. Some respond to a double jointed bit, other respond better to a nutcracker.

I think it's all about trial and error to be honest - there are plenty of other bits out there so don't just consider the gag. Try beg steal or borrow what bits you can and see how your horse goes. My pony prefers roller bits - or that's what i settled on for him and he's happiest in, my sister's horse goes best in a Dr Bristol type mouthpieces whereas my horse just seems dead in the mouth with them!

Yours could go wonderfully in a gag but it may hate it!
 
LadyT - you summed up exactly what I was going to say. Stinky has had a variety of bits since 3 1/2, hanging cheeks and pelhams - of various types of mouth pieces, wilkie snaffle, double bridle, dutch gag depending on how he was going, ie whether heavy or light, a little strong (not listening) etc.

At the moment he schools in a snaffle - sometimes a hanging cheek, sometimes the wilkie, sometimes a loose ring - all are french or peanut linked. We jump in the wilkie - he is a big lad and I like lots of control, and we show in the pelham or the double, though he seems to like the double the most now and the sliding version.

Whilst I would rather avoid a strong bit on a young horse - at the end of the day far better to have squeeze control rather than hauling and yanking - it is the hands that make a bit harsh.

What I would say is a strong bit should not be considered a quick fix, schooling and manners are the way to go, but on occasion, some horses need a bit more bitting for certain activities - I always hunted or did XC on my 2nd TB on a gag, so I could squeeze my hand and have instant brakes. Rest of the time she was in a snaffle.
 
I think that people may also be forgetting that young horses are quite often "strong" becuase they are too weak to be able to work and carry themselves properly therefore are on their head a bit, or they can not control the power that they generate from behind and therefore again, it comes out the front end.

I have found that this is the case more often than the fact that the horse is strong in the mouth as a youngster. As much flatwork as you can possibly get into the horse can only be of benefit.

I have a horse that as a youngster had to be ridden in a three ring waterford, grackle controller noseband because he was so "strong", 18 months later, with huge amounts of flatwork, he is now back in a snaffle and lovely and light in the hand.


But, IME, a dutch gag, or waterford, or pelham or whatever you find works now is ok, jsut try to help the horse by working on the flat..............
 
ok i will bear that in mind i havent got a heavyhand and dont hold on to her mouth but keep the contact as light as possible,she does do alot of schooling and coming on a treat,shes an absolute angel to ride.
 
I dont 'hate' any bit but I do hate them being used incorrectly! Everytime I see a dutch gag being used with one set of reins and those reins on anything but the large first ring makes me really angry!!
I was told when I bought my mare that she is 'strong' - I ride her in a simple french link loose ring snaffle and the same for my arab - neither are strong whatever we do! They have however had endless amounts of flatwork put into them and as said before this is the key! If you do try the gag please at least use it correctly not with one set of reins, so many people are ignorant of this :-)
 
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