Is it ALL rider error?

[Shantara]

I've heard some people say everything bad that happens is the fault of the rider and never the horse.
I believe sometimes it is down to the horse being cheeky, but I can often see how a rider could have prevented it.

What do you think?

 

[missyme10]

I think those that say its always the rider are the high and mighty type and need to prise themselves out of their rear ends!

I have a cob that suddenly for no reason just runs up onto the banks of the school, also gate naps and is just generally cheeky and is always trying it on. He's in perfect health, just young and full of it. So rider error doesn't come into it, well not unless you want to count him being smart enough to know who he can and can't get away with his nonsense with. This hardly supports the theory that its always the rider, quite the opposite

 

[Shantara]

Yes! That's very very true. Ned is very capable of doing gates and every now and again I can get him to do them with a lot of time, quiet talking and urging with my leg. However, most of the time he rears and spins.
Although a lot of the time it /IS/ rider error, but to say EVERYTHING is...that's just rubbish

 

[Spring Feather]

No it isn't always rider error but mostly it is. From the riders I view I'd say the ratio is about 8 times of out 10 where it is the rider who made the mistake, whether that be in the actual competition/arena riding or whether they haven't instilled the correct manners in the horse from the ground prior to riding, but more often the rider has overfaced the horse and should have known the comfort zone of the horse and wait/practice till the horse is more capable. With a willing partnership almost everything can be overcome if the rider/handler is prepared to put the time in. Of course there are some horses who are just a pain in the you-know-whats and will act up at any opportunity no matter the time and training they've had.

 

[texel]

It is the human's responsibility to work out what the horse is trying to communicate to us.

Horses are flight animals and are highly reactive; they do not plot or plan to make life difficult for their humans. it seems that way sometimes but they offer a behaviour they have either been taught or is in keeping with their instincts.

Oops I guess I am being one of those high and mighty types ................................................................. LOL

No I study the equine MIND

 

[JessPickle]

Rider is a massive influence obviously, but to me some horses are more genuine than others. Which does make a difference.

 

[soulfull]

Rider is a massive influence obviously, but to me some horses are more genuine than others. Which does make a difference.

This AND often people will say oh he just naps by this or that, the gate is a common one. What was rider error was the first time or two the pony slowed down by the gate and the rider didn't correct him!! Rider error

So many things that people think oh he just suddenly started doing this, is in fact not true its just the rider/handler missed the early signs

Typical example. Friend of friend said oh my WC suddenly locks his neck and tanks off when I am leading him hmmmm I say no warning at all? NO she says

I tell her I had one like that once, he used to just turn his nose 1/2 -1 inch away from you, and then gone (if you didn't correct him) Surprise surprise she said oh yeah he does that too :bangshead:
So then I explained that is your warning sign and you missed it!!
guess what, he hasn't took off with her since

Edited to say I am not self righteous just learnt from mistakes

 

[missyme10]

So texel you have never met a naughty pony, are you actually suggessting you don't exist?

Are you really suggesting that equines are that thick? I say thick because an animal incapable of thinking is basically lacking in the ability to think ahead, do horses actually have the ability to think? If your answer is yes then you prove they have the ability to knowingly misbehave.

You only have to see the pony who goes perfect for a decent rider and when you pop a little kid on it pulls its neck down and the kid out of the saddle for grass.
Oh sorry, he was trying to communicate that he was hungry, gee how thick am I?
Naughty ponies, nah they don't exist

 

[mr fields]

most common faults of horse riding is the riders fault, but not always as horses need to learn aswell as people and it can take a few times before its right. people should not always blame the rider for a horse knocking a fence down because it isnt, horses always make mistakes as so can people

 

[*hic*]

It is the human's responsibility to work out what the horse is trying to communicate to us.

Horses are flight animals and are highly reactive; they do not plot or plan to make life difficult for their humans. it seems that way sometimes but they offer a behaviour they have either been taught or is in keeping with their instincts.

Oops I guess I am being one of those high and mighty types ................................................................. LOL

No I study the equine MIND

You obviously haven't met my horse, who has a sense of humour. He certainly does plot and plan and having him around gives us a lot of laughs and a good deal of frustration.

 

[Cortez]

Horses are not li'l angels, nor are they Black Beauty (Anna Sewell has a lot to answer for....), there are bad ones and thick ones and good ones too. Trick is to pick the good guys and steer clear of the awkward buggers. Everything is NOT the riders fault, although a lot is........

 

[Pearlsasinger]

So texel you have never met a naughty pony, are you actually suggessting you don't exist?

Are you really suggesting that equines are that thick? I say thick because an animal incapable of thinking is basically lacking in the ability to think ahead, do horses actually have the ability to think? If your answer is yes then you prove they have the ability to knowingly misbehave.

You only have to see the pony who goes perfect for a decent rider and when you pop a little kid on it pulls its neck down and the kid out of the saddle for grass.
Oh sorry, he was trying to communicate that he was hungry, gee how thick am I?
Naughty ponies, nah they don't exist

But your example IS an example of rider error. It's not really the rider's fault, it's the fault of whoever put the 'little kid' on that pony but it's hardly the pony's fault that he can't read the mind of the child on top who is not capable of telling him what it wants him to do. Definitely rider error in that example.

 

[blitznbobs]

Depends on your point of view ... If my cob manages to get himself on to the wrong bend he is able to spook, spin and avoid the contact ( something he tries hard to do) but if you keep him on the right bend he can't do it... So is it rider error for not insisting all the time on the correct bend ( sometimes forcibly ) or is it the horse playing the fool that wants to spook and spin in the first place??? (or Is it the pigeons fault for being so scarey?)

 

[Orangehorse]

Rider asks the horse to take off at a fence, horse ignores and puts in a short one - and has the pole down?

 

[missyme10]

Pearlsasinger: (can't quote as on phone)

Whilst I get what you say, I believe its a perfectly good example because in the case of most situations the child resists the pull but the pony ignores because it knows the child isn't strong enough to stop them.
Same pony doesn't try with competent rider or stronger adult or maybe tries once but very quickly learns it can't do it.

What do you read from this?

I personally read the following: little **** pony is taking advantage of small person up top, if this were not the case why were grass reigns invented?

Ponies can be complete shite bags for no reason other than they can be and no one will ever convince me otherwise, Not when I've got a complete knobber of a cob who behaves for me but takes the pee out of daughter who is a better rider than I will ever be, he's strong and knows it and knows she can do nothing about his antics because she's not as strong as me. Not being strong, is that rider error? Or pony taking the pee?

 

[glenruby]

See, in the above example I still see rider error. The small child is not capable of giving direction/holding the attention of the pony thereby lettin it do what it wants. The pony is not getting any specific instructions from the child so thereby cannot be doing anything wrong.

And yes, napping is initially the product of rider error or lack of ability. If you "ride" a horse and not just act as a passenger then there is not much room for the horse to fault. If the horse has a fault it is that it may tend to question or disagree with the rider but to allow them to continue is the rider's fault.

I think where jumping is concerned this isnt so cut and dry. A horse with poor technique can have fences down under the best of jockeys. In many cases an average horse can produce above average results by clever riding though.

 

[missyme10]

Glenruby, when a child resists with all their might they are giving very specific instruction, and the pony knows damn well what that resistence on the reigns means. They chooe to ignore it because they can, its called being a little shite.

That is not rider error, the child is doing the correct thing, exactly what I would do, but the pony is smart and knows the child isn't strong enough therefore takes the piss.

I can see how you would define as rider error, my point is ponies are very smart and have many ways to evade work or be naughty that has bugger all to do with them trying to communicate something. Some are just smart little shites that have learnt every trick in the book.
Tis why I love ponies, 14.2hh bundle of trouble x 2

 

[burtie]

Yes, it is always rider or human error(if rider is young or inexperienced under guidance). Even if it is simply not recognising the horse is not suitable for riders level of experience or not applying the correct level of encouragement or discipline. This is not the same as rider/human fault!

The only exceptions to this are 1 off out the blue unexpected actions from the horse, however it is then the job of the humans to asses why it happened and look to prevent it happening again!

 

[Lobelia_Overhill]

Many years ago when I was on a lesson the pony I was riding decided to attack another pony on the lesson.

Was that my fault?

 

[PolarSkye]

If Kal doesn't do what I ask when schooling, I tend to assume it's me . . . but then he's an obliging sort and reasonably well-educated and I know that if I ask him halfway right he'll meet me half way and try and do what I'm asking.

If I ask him to do something he doesn't yet understand (walk to canter is not yet established, as an example) and he doesn't comply then he's not being naughty - he just doesn't know how.

However, I know he has the ability to "think" . . . he behaves quite differently with Jen (trainer), me and Em (daughter) . . . Jen pushes him so he evades by spooking at things he's been past fifteen times already (a chair in the arena, for example) . . . Em hasn't ridden him much, he doesn't quite trust her, so he throws his head around alot and spends rather too much time gazing around looking at things (but then she tends not to give him things to think about - so that could be chalked up at least partially to rider error) . . . with me he's somewhere in the middle - he knows and trusts me, is able to decipher my somewhat garbled aids and actually helps me out/tries - and I can't remember the last time he spooked with me. So when he's being an idiot with Jen is that rider error? I don't think so. We call it his "me no speaky Eeeeengleeeeesh" phase . . . he either finds what she's asking him to do hard or boring and just decides to not play the game.

I'm sorry - that was a trifle rambly - hope it made sense.

 

[mainpower]

It's always the rider's fault ... unless the horse is Welsh!