Is it appropriate for novice owners to be diy liveries?

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blackandwhite

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Went to my ponies this morning and had a passing chat with Dad of lovely family who are very much novice owners (thankfully they're under no illusion they're anything but novice). On my way out to my guys and out the corner of my eye see Dad trying to take Horse out. Horse does not want to go (it's out on its own and hugely stressed, which is a whole other topic). After a short panic Horse went vertical and Dad clearly had no idea what to do. I rush over to help him and before I get there horse goes vertical and this time goes right over. Luckily Dad is fine and, after the shock wears off, horse is up and fine too. I calm them both and take over getting them back to the stable. In doing so I find Horse is wearing a bridle with the bit way too low and dad has a rope through the bit rings. Obviously when dad's applied pressure the loose snaffle has "nutcrackered" the poor animal in the mouth causing the reaction. Everybody was fine and we had a chat and the poor guy kept thinking me and telling me he knows nothing. It got me thinking... should Yos have a responsibility to not allow people who don't have basic knowledge and handling skills be solely responsible for a horse?
 
Not sure what you mean by "should" ........... they have certain legal responsibilities, but how does a YO know who is going to handle the horse, and what the horse is going to be like.
'obvious the man has no idea, he needs to take lessons, just explain that it like driving a car inf one has never seen a car before ................. he needs help before there is an accident, well there has been an accident.
 
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Ideally novice owners should have basic knowledge of horses and how to care for them, it doesn't take much to pick up a book and learn.
Although a large yard with other DIY liveries can often help novice people as there is a pool of knowledge they can depend on but it's only useful if they ask for help. Sometimes people are too proud to ask.
Perhaps they should be on part or full livery until they get more experienced...but who's going to tell them that?
Who's to judge who's a novice and what do you class as a novice?
 
Everybody needs to learn somewhere but I do think people need to be responsible enough to keep a horse somewhere big enough to learn from others.
 
Every one has to learn at some point, but would like to think that they have some basic information before they go and get a horse. Spending time at a local stable helping out and just being around horses is a good start. It also helps if they admit they are novice and are learning and as we all know we are always learning with horses and no one knows everything. So a helpful yard where the other people are able to help and advise is good. Trouble is some really do think they know it all and really they have no idea these are the most dangerous as quite often they will not listen and always think they are right. But as said before we all started off not knowing a lot.
 
Well if we are going to get upset about novices owning horses without appropriate supervision goodness knows where that leaves the propsect of certain people having children...
 
I know everyone was a novice once but no I don't think it's appropriate for really novice owners to have a horse on DIY when they won't seek help/ tuition on how to look after their horse. Great if they do, I'm happy to help but I really have a problem with people who know nothing, thinking they know everything. Example, new family at the yard got a cob 3 weeks ago, first horse they have ever owned. A week later went to the sales and got a 5.5 month old cob foal. It's in a small stable, will be for the foreseeable future, they don't want it to go out in case it injures itself. It is fed hay in a large holed net with is perfect for foal feet to get stuck in. It has no interaction with other equines and is getting its education from people who have no idea. But will they listen, will they buggery. :(
 
Yes, I believe that it is. Considering I am.

If I need help, I ask. If I'm worried, I ask. Even if I think I'm being stupid, if there is any doubt in my mind, I ask. Whether it's another livery, his owners (who own the yard), my farrier or my vet. I know that I don't have the knowledge or experience to deal with anything that comes my way, so I will NEVER take the chance.

When I took Red on, I'd never sat on a donkey, let alone a horse. My knowledge of care was from helping my friend a few times a month for a year or so.

With so much information avaiable, internet/libraries etc (all of which I have exhausted, hence my finding HHO) it's really rather safe, and of course those websites and books aren't always right for the situation, and I wouldn't make an assumption/diagnosis based on something I've read.

However, I think if I were too proud to ask for help, then no, it wouldn't be appropriate.

Ax
 
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In an ideal world you'd like to think that every new horse owner would have learned basic care before buying, however it's not the case (and my first pony was bought by non horsey parents for me when I didn't know enough and kept alone at home, it wiped the floor with us, so I can't talk!)

I don't think it should be up to the YO to decide though and to be responsible. I think the duty of care thing falling on YOs is another reason that It is a risk to have DIY liveries at your property.
 
I would still count myself as a novice owner. my mare is my first horse and I've had her 4 years. I had 2 shares before I bought my own and had helped. at the riding school for years.

I deliberately had my mare on a yard close to my horsey friends although it meant I was further from work and home. it was diy and I loved having my own horse to look after and I'd have been mortified if someone said I wasnt experienced enough to keep my horse on diy. and I listened and learned but would still class myself as a novice. im lucky in that I have a very easy mare to look after and had to learn (thanks to a very lovely livery) how to bandage after she got an awful kick as I hadnt a clue before as I'd never needed to do it!

I guess for me its not necessarily how novice, but how much common sense and horse sense, and how much is someone willing to listen and learn (not necessarily from fellow liveries but from someone suitably experienced)
 
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Everyone has to start somewhere, so in principle I don't object, though there may be specific cases I would object to strongly. The main thing a novice needs is the awareness that there's a lot to learn and they'll never be done learning it, and the willingness to seek advice or help when needed. I've owned horses for about 15 years now and I still feel like a novice, it always amazes me if someone asks my advice about something!

Speaking only from my own observation, most of the people I know who make irresponsible horse related decisions or who have poor standards of care for their horses are the so-called experienced ones-the type who reckon they're fully qualified instructors/semi professional riders etc and they've had horses so long the first one they bought was a bleddy eohippus.
 
A novice DIYer on a yard with many knowledgeable people around 24/7 is one thing. A novice DIYer on a yard with few liveries who all come up at different times is quite another. I have no problem at all with novice owners; I have many on my own farm, however all horses are on full care livery here so I am in control of their day to day living and I know each and every horse on my farm so I know straight away if there is a problem with said horse; a novice alone probably would not, and not only that, would probably also have no idea how to remedy the problem.
 
Well over 45 years ago I was a novice owner, but with good guide and help from other horseowners and asking for help when I needed it and being told how to do this and that for the horse has taught me over the years, as you still on learning curve many years later. You gave this new horse owner a helpful hand, which I think they are most grateful for, just be there for them and give them help as needed as no doubt someone did that for you.
 
Problem is that even if people do ask for help, and deliberately go somewhere they think they will get it, doesn't mean it will be good help!
Friend of mine got a loan horse after 20yrs or so without horses, very rusty but knew this. Arranged to go to a yard with another girl who had offered to help and support - this girl has had many horses, including youngsters, broken horses to ride etc. so on the face of it plenty experienced enough. Imagine what went through my mind one night when I commented that friend might like to put hay on the floor because they (very high) hayrack might be uncomfortable for her to eat from - she was taking hay from the very top, near the ceiling - only to hear " oh, I was told that because she was a big horse it would strain her neck eating from the floor"!!
So-called experienced girl then proceeded to making her keep the horse on it's own, single turnout, because she couldn't handle getting her own mature and very calm pony in if there was another animal in the field. Horse went a bit crazy, started pushing the boundaries as she got fitter, experienced person was terrified and refused to handle it. Also told friend she would need to feed it (really no need, in good condition and not in any kind of work at all, with adlib hay) which sent horse right over the edge and they never recovered. Horse got sent back, friend has been completely put off ever getting another, experienced person goes and gets another youngster instead. The only reason there was space was because her previous youngster had been moved on as it was too much for her to handle and she was scared of it - and she had had it since foalhood.

Friend would have done better left on her own to be honest. I think some novice owners are amazing because they ask ask ask, and read read read, but those who don't know what they don't know will always be dangerous, no matter how many years they haven't known it for.
 
I think it depends on what kind of DIY yard they are on a few egs from my recent observation
1. Novice owner horse appears to have colic I she looks worried tells me it's passed no droppings overnight I suggest she should call the vet but turns out she does not have vets number as the YO 'does all that stuff' but YO is out for that day and can't be contacted.
2. Turns out said horse has a urinry tract infection - possibly because no one told novice owner that horses need clean drining water and the example set by some supposedly experienced liveries is worse than useless.
3. As above a whole lot of bad examples on yard so novice owners think it's ok to muck out only when they can be bothered to change water occasionally and to leave horse stood in stable for days on end cos it's cold or wet outside.
 
Apologies - I haven't read the whole thread . . . but, some novices will be absolutely find on DIY yards, provided they have two things: 1) a kind, hands-on YO and a supportive community of fellow liveries who are willing to give constructive guidance and help; and 2) a thirst for knowledge and the will and wit to ask for help.

However, not all novice owners are like that . . . and I know people who have owned horses for a long time who are still pig ignorant and won't be told and, frankly, are a liability due to their ignorance.

P
 
we cannot stop people taking on horses when they are novice, we know that

But I would rather they be on a DIY yard with at least others around to intervene even if only in dire dangerous situations than rent a field and be absolutely out of sight to everyone
 
I don't know, it can be very tricky for other liveries. While I agree that everyone starts somewhere and that with the right help it can be very successful but that isn't always so.
For example we had some new liveries at my yard, complete novices, never had a horse and never even been to a riding school/ even patted a horse. They bought a very large, very young, very unhandled cob for their young daughter (by young I mean about 10), who had never ridden, to back. It was a stupid situation and it fell on the other liveries to attempt to rug, muck out and turn out this untouched horse because the owner wouldn't even go in the stable with it and no one wanted it to suffer, it wasn't nasty just scared. The owners were lovely people but they just had no idea what they had taken on. That it a case when novice owners should not have a horse on DIY
 
Short answer. No. Yes we all need to start but what's wrong with rolling up your sleeves and sharing to start with? There is a point when you take the first leap to owning a horse and that's when you ensure you do have good support around you. You never stop learning about horses!
 
The problem is not necessarily novices. The problem is idiots who think they have nothing to learn and/or won't ask for help - and they come in the shape of both novice and experienced horse owners.
 
40 + years ago I was a novice with my first horse on diy, we got lots of advice, some of it I now know to be total rubbish! My parents did not have a clue, my sister and I has some basic knowledge from reading books and our weekly riding lesson. Do you know what!? We survived and so did our pony. He lived until he was31. He was the one who taught us. Everyone has to start somewhere and most people want to learn and do the best for their horses. Making mistakes is part of it, even now I can get a few things wrong, what human doesn't. A very knowledgable friend went hunting recently with her bit miles too low and ended up with no brakes all day. I think most novices will do alright, the ones that don't probably don't have the right attitude anyhow.
 
Bear9 said:
For example we had some new liveries at my yard, complete novices, never had a horse and never even been to a riding school/ even patted a horse. They bought a very large, very young, very unhandled cob for their young daughter (by young I mean about 10), who had never ridden, to back. It was a stupid situation and it fell on the other liveries to attempt to rug, muck out and turn out this untouched horse because the owner wouldn't even go in the stable with it and no one wanted it to suffer, it wasn't nasty just scared. The owners were lovely people but they just had no idea what they had taken on. That it a case when novice owners should not have a horse on DIY
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But surely they shouldn't have had a horse at all in this example? Can you imagine if they'd kept this horse in a field or on their own property? It no doubt would have turned into a welfare case?

I was a novice owner before I got my 1st horse, I'd shared a horse for about a year, but I didn't have much of a clue about having my own. I learnt an awful lot from knowledgable people and eventually managed to find my rubbish advice filter!

I got my 2nd horse which was an 8 month old colt & with amazing advice & support, I now have an amazing 3 year old which goes to show, not all novices are total idiots! ;)
 
We have a large DIY livery yard and there are always more knowledgable people about to give advice. What does worry me are the 2 very novice liveries who moved off to rent their own field as they were fed up with people 'interfering'. God help their poor ponies!
 
I started out DIY at 14 and still am!

I had worked all my weekends on a riding school since the age of 10. Got proper lessons on how to lunge, longrein correctly etc. Already knew how to muck out, condition score, basic feeds that kind of thing but i still had a steep learning curve!! I started keeping my own horse at the riding school, very soon moved to a small diy yard.
 
I think the difference comes when people either are willing to learn and accept support, or not. That is regardless of skill level. I have been around horses 15 years, and have owned my own for nearly 7. I worked with them as a teen and also loaned endless horses before I bought. I was a sponge, soaking up as much knowledge as I could. My horse has always been on full/part livery, but when she returns from loan will be DIY. You could say I am a novice DIY livery and I may appear as a headless chicken for a while, while I learn to settle into a routine, however that doesn't mean I am a novice in terms of understanding how to handle and provide care to my horse. I still am a sponge, because I know that I will never ever know it all when it comes to horses.

In some ways I think DIY can be a good way to learn- you have to be independent and make your own decisions accordingly. However, I think any RESPONSIBLE and good novice owner will ask for help and advice, and will seek to gain the right understanding.Those who assume they know best are a hazard to their horse, themselves and other liveries around them - that goes for any skill level too!
 
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I think Spring Feather has it spot on, a novice on a yard with lots of experienced help at hand is one thing and a novice on a yard with little or no help quite another. The yard in question is run by a rather disinterested very young woman and has a handful of liveries besides me, there's no yard community, it's an odd set up. My ponies are there for the turnout, my horse is on an infinitely more professional yard 10 minutes down the road. Maybe I've answered my own question there, the actual issue is the support not the novice-ness and that, in turn, leads to "should livery yards be registered, licensed, inspected and properly run?".
 
We were all novices once. So- the horse reared, no harm done. I know loads of people who have a horse rear on them, for whatever reason- freshness, colty, excitement, incorrect handling. That's how we learn, from experience. Its not as easy these days, with all the health and safety regs, to be able to help in return for rides at a local dealers, or riding school. I bet everyone of us more experienced people have had near-misses at some stage of their horsey lives :O .... And yes, I think its fine for a novice to own a horse at DIY, it would be worse if they were alone in a rented field, or their own paddock next to their house.
 
Somewhere along the line the bloke got some advice because no completely novice owner will know about leading a horse in a bridle with the rope threaded through the bit rings. So, whatever advice he's been given, most likely from a more experienced owner/trainer, is more dangerous than being a novice IMO.
 
We were novice owners to start with. Luckily we started with one pony at a very friendly, large livery yard. I have to be honest and admit we had'nt got a clue when we first started out. We now have two horses at the same yard and have learnt a lot about them. I would not have been capable of diy livery on a small yard. I still appreciate the odd bit of advice from other people at the yard and have books for reference.
 
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