Is it at all possible to discuss Shod/Barefoot?

I think some people from both sides of the argument can be blinkered and lack pragmatism. Whatever you do/have done to your horse's feet should suit the horse and should not be detrimental to their health and/or welfare. I have used farriers who are great, barefoot trimmers who are great, farriers who are not great and a barefoot trimmer who was not great (I'm sure there are others).

That said, I have never been treated like a weirdo for having a shod horse that I compete & do lots of other stuff with, whereas I have been treated as being completely whacko for having a barefoot horse that I compete & do lots of other stuff with. Fortunately I have a thick skin and on the whole don't give a monkeys what people think of me or say about me, but if I had a more sensitive disposition I might be quite easily upset and prone to hysterical and apparently evangelical outbursts on forums :eek:
 
See, youre all at it again.

Shod/unshod debate always turns into farriers versus barefoot trimmers.

The simple answer is if your horse can go without shoes then why put them on.

If youre horse cant go without shoes then have him/her shod.

Its whats best for the horse thats important not barefoot trimmers are better than farriers or vice versa.

Horse for courses
 
It goes in the same bag as those who rail against people who shamelessly neglect their horses by having them on livery rather than doing them themselves, to those who choose to clip out/trim their horses rather than leaving them au naturel, those who think stabling is the new devil.

Horses have very basic needs (albeit blooming expensive) and that is to be fed, watered, movement and warmth. How much we take "away" from their natural ability to fend for themselves means how much we have to put back to compensate. i.e hard working fully clipped horse needs equivalent feeding and rugging or stables to make up. (not saying stables are even a must here as have seen grass liveries work well clipped, competing but rugged and fed accordingly)
 
From reading the posts of many people who support shoeing, the arguement seems to be that the horse needs the shoe to protect its feet in work or on roads etc., rather than an out right war between farriers and bare foot trimmers.

Of course by our very nature people will tend to form tribes and be hostile to the opposing view.

Indeed, I also agree that in certain circumstances the hoof needs to be protected, but, I would much prefer boots for this than shoes. I have to say that I have always been really uncomfortable with hammering nails into a living hoof, even before barefoot became as popular, and am pleased to have the alternative. Our horses appear happier for it as well, so its win win all round for us.
 
It depends on the horse, workload etc etc etc
Or so I thought...
I said on here that my horse is shod because he does a hell of a lot a roadwork, he events so has studs in and hasn't got the best feet (although the farrier came yesterday and said his feet are so much better and are quite good now :) )
I then got accused of being cruel because my horse is shod and that horses can do loads of work barefoot on the roads etc etc by someone who has never even seen my horse! arrghh!
As others have said 'Depends on the horse!!!!!!'
I did used to work for someone who had their horses barefoot so I do have first hand experience.
I have had barefoot/shod/ half shod etc etc. Just depends on what is best for the horse.
 
Pete Ramey has done a really good article here:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

He was a farrier and is now a leading barefoot trimmer in the US. It's particularly interesting to see how much further ahead they are there (or, if you are in the anti-barefoot camp, just how crazy they've got). I'm sure someone mentioned that on here recently in terms of the US approach to laminitis and navicular compared to the standard treatments recommended in the UK.
 
quirky said:
I don't know why but the barefoot lot seem to be on a par with the Parelli lot.

It's their way or no way!!
Click to expand...

Sweeping generalisation here.
My horse has recently gone barefoot though I may have to shoe to compete, and I am not too pleased at being linked with the Parelli brigade.
However, I'm happy not paying £500 a year, the horse is happy unshod and the barefoot trimmer lady has visited me twice, said his feet look fab and not charged me a penny!!!
When he is fit we will be off, hunting, xc, sj and dressaging and not a 'carrot stick' in sight.
 
soloequestrian said:
Pete Ramey has done a really good article here:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

He was a farrier and is now a leading barefoot trimmer in the US. It's particularly interesting to see how much further ahead they are there (or, if you are in the anti-barefoot camp, just how crazy they've got). I'm sure someone mentioned that on here recently in terms of the US approach to laminitis and navicular compared to the standard treatments recommended in the UK.
Click to expand...

'Ere! I think that were me...

And furthermore to add to the whole thing of being an informed owner, if it wasn't for Ramey and his peers/mentors/fellow researchers and EPAUK then I think my poor lad would have still been intermittently lame with the above!

I think these guys show that there is more than one way to skin a cat if you really want to: http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/

I think we should actively share experiences (successes and failures) of all specialities when it comes to lameness issues. I'm sure somewhere in the middle is the answer to the questions of laminitis, navicular etc.

Talk about the horse being the greatest teacher, he's been the steepest learning curve I've ever had!
 
tallyho! said:
Talk about the horse being the greatest teacher, he's been the steepest learning curve I've ever had!
Click to expand...
Me too but one of the most interesting I must say because of the holistic emaphasis in 'barefoot'.

A couple of sentences from the first page of Pete Ramey's book 'Making natural hoofcare work for you'. about him reading Jaime Jackson's book 'Horse owners guide' has always stuck in my mind and was exactly how I felt myself.
Quote... " That book made so much sense to me I didn't have to take Jaime's words for even one sentence. Somehow I knew I was reading the truth". end quote.

I know many think it's all hogwash but this is how I felt and feel. What more can I do but go with what I believe and what makes sense. That doesn't make me 'right' but neither does it make me 'wrong' it's just me. I respect others views because I'm sure they are doing what they believe is 'right'. My views change constantly as I learn and experience more and some things I used to do I look back and think arghhh, how could I have thought/done that? I did 'that' then because I thought that was best and what made sense then.
I'm speaking in general now not just about shoes v barefoot.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That Pete Ramey article is so good, everyone on the Forum should read that, and I mean everyone.

My horse is shod at the moment, but I am fully convinced that if he hadn't been barefoot for about 18 months, and I had carried on with him being shod as he was, he would sooner or later have become lame with navicular. I kept thinking there was something wrong with the way he walked, had the vet and farrier out at the same time, but they were both happy with him. He also developed a swelling on the side of his knee.

The final straw was he slipped on concrete at a show at Hartpury and I decided to go barefoot. The trimmer said he was landing badly and the backs of his feet were very weak. He was never sore or lame the whole time he was barefoot, and I used boots when necessary. But the facilities I have to keep him make it very difficult for a "barefoot lifestyle" so I decided to get shoes back on again, and it does make life a lot easier. The shoes come for a few weeks, and he has maintained a reasonably healthy foot, even though not as good as when barefoot.

Incidently, reference the Pete Ramey article, I see that Dengie have introduced some "No Molasses" feeds. Good, I am about to go and order some.
 
TBH I would love to be able to keep my TB barefoot. He's retired with Navicular and it would save me an absolute fortune!!! Unfortunately I know my horse, and I know it would be a very bad idea to try.
He is a TB, and the breed has a genetic problem with regards to their feet. Fact! My horse is in natural balance shoes with equipak. My farrier is excellent and has a set of my horse's feet x-rays. He is fed a good quality diet which I supplement and always have done with Farriers Formula. His soles are so thin, that he flinches if you tap them with the back of a hoofpick. He becomes uncomfortable and weightshifts when the farrier comes and takes off all his shoes in preparation to dress and re-shoe, and I know he would be crippled, and in agony for years if we tried and persevered with barefoot. I would probably have the WHW, RSPCA etc, etc on my case for allowing such a severely lame horse to roam the field!
I put a boa boot on him once when he'd lost a shoe, and within 1 day (6 hours), he had rubbed his heel raw. He has very thin, sensitive skin.


The people I personally know who own horses who are kept barefoot, are cobs, native type ponies, and I know a Lusitano. All have naturally, generally good, hard feet and are nothing like your typical TBs feet. Of course there are some TBs who can cope well barefoot I am sure, but not mine.

What works for one horse will not work for another, and I think it show's the ignorance of those people who assume this will work for every single horse.
 
blucanoo1990 ,please read my post ref "you need shoes " , it is directed to andyspooner and was taken as the joke it was intended to be , if you read through the thread properly you will also see i advised him to take his socks off so they dont pinch his feet
chris
 
soloequestrian said:
Do you have a reference for this?
Have you looked at the Rockley Farm stuff?
Click to expand...

Yes I have looked, as I said I would love to be able to keep him barefoot. I did with all my other retired horses, and I would love to be able to save the money. I know this one would not cope at all! It would be kinder to PTS. The vet agrees.

He's comfy, happy and sound at the moment, which is what I want. I always know when he's in pain or not comfortable as he colics.

:)
 
Yes, I've never been able to find any scientific evidence that proves TB's and others have genetically poor feet. In fact most of the anecdotal stuff I have read points to horses being the same as wild/feral horses with very little genetic difference in their feet and general physiology.
I think TB's feet tend to be bad because they are shod from a young age, feed high sugar and energy diets etc. etc. I have a TBx and she now has great, well fair tbh lol, feet when once they were flat as pancakes with horrendous cracks. Of course we believe that TB's have bad feet too so don't tend to see problems we see just TB feet...

A link for you misinterpreted just for interest. I'm sure you're making the best decision for your horse this is just about the TB foot thing in general. http://www.healthyhoof.com/case_studies/BC/BC.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Misinterpreted:
But what about the 'genetic problem inherent to TB feet' - where did that bit of information come from? Have you any reliable evidence for this, or is it just hearsay?
 
Talking to racehorse trainers, vets, farriers and generally anyone who has real experience in particular with thoroughbreds, you will be told time and again this is the case. Google it, and multiple references come up.

A strong hoof has never been one of the Thoroughbreds strong points. I'm sorry, and it is very sad, but it hasn't. Of course there are some TBs with decent feet, I'm not disputing that and I only wish I owned one, but no one can deny that there are a far higher percentage of TBs who naturally have very poor quality horn, flat feet, tender soles, poor blood supply into the feet, etc, compared to other breeds.
 
Misinterpreted said:
Talking to racehorse trainers, vets, farriers and generally anyone who has real experience in particular with thoroughbreds, you will be told time and again this is the case. Google it, and multiple references come up.

A strong hoof has never been one of the Thoroughbreds strong points. I'm sorry, and it is very sad, but it hasn't. Of course there are some TBs with decent feet, I'm not disputing that and I only wish I owned one, but no one can deny that there are a far higher percentage of TBs who naturally have very poor quality horn, flat feet, tender soles, poor blood supply into the feet, etc, compared to other breeds.
Click to expand...

But surely this, as AndyS says, is likely to be a management issue, not a genetic one. TB's are far more likely to live constrained lives, be fed on totally inappropriate feed and have shoes on early. Google brings up lots of information from anecdotal sources, but you can't use those to say that it's a fact that they have a genetic weakness. I think if you raised a group of TB's in a foot-friendly manner, they would be unlikely to have any more problems than any other breed of horse.
 
soloequestrian said:
But surely this, as AndyS says, is likely to be a management issue, not a genetic one. TB's are far more likely to live constrained lives, be fed on totally inappropriate feed and have shoes on early. Google brings up lots of information from anecdotal sources, but you can't use those to say that it's a fact that they have a genetic weakness. I think if you raised a group of TB's in a foot-friendly manner, they would be unlikely to have any more problems than any other breed of horse.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree this could be very true.
If someone were to conduct some research cataloguing the condition of a whole range of TBs feet, who have been brought up in different environments, it would be interesting.
 
As some TB's have ok feet and some don't, tends to favor the view that certain lines within the breed may well have a tendancy to poor feet with restricted blood flow. If they are winners then they will get bred from no matter what.

If you take a youngster with a genetic prepotency to restricted blood, flow whose feet have not matured and further restrict the blood flow with the shoes and add feeds with high levels of sugars....

Once a horse has been through that system with those conditions it seems unlikely that it could ever be rehabilitated, the best you could do is keep it comfortable.
 
I had one of those low heeled, long toed, thin soled TBs, he's one of the Rockley case studies.
He didn't respond to shoes and taking hin barefoot was his last chance before being pts.
His feet have completely changed and my vet and farrier are amazed. Having seen how his feet have changed have moved me to the point of view that there is more than genetics is going on.
I have also met farriers who hav
e the view that it is early shoeing that causes a lot of the problems ( though ttheir solution is more shoeing) .
Misinterpreted if your horse is comfortable and happy then you are doing what is right for him but I worry about blanket statements about tb feet, if I'd listened to statements like that in feb when mine wasn't even staying field sound and I thought I would have to make the worst decision I might not
have given barefoot a go.
 
Misinterpreted said:
Yes, I agree this could be very true.
If someone were to conduct some research cataloguing the condition of a whole range of TBs feet, who have been brought up in different environments, it would be interesting.
Click to expand...
That would be interesting. I know a couple of tbs who have good feet without much effort on their owners part and both were store horses,
 
Please do correct me if I am wrong, just a quick question about navicular:

Navicular disease often begins as an inflammation of the bursa between the deep digital flexor tendon and the navicular bone of the foot. In the horse, the navicular bone is located directly behind the coffin bone and is held in place by tendons and ligaments.

Lots of websites say remedial shoeing is the way forward.. why exactly and what kind?

If the tissue surrounding the bone is squeezed (which is often the case causing inflammation and 'navicular syndrome') by contracted heels/flat feet etc then surely the pressure needs to be released?

I'm having bone surgery on my shoulder soon as the main tendon is impinged t release pressure for my tendon so it can work properly again. From what I've read, navicular is similar, it's an impingement of the deep flexor tendon though surgery would not be required here as in theory all that needs to be done is give the tendons and bones more room in the hoof capsule i.e. the hoof capsule needs to grow and let the navicular bone and related tendons start to work again.

It may have come to point of no return where the tendon is so impinged that it probaly will never do it's work again. However, I've had experience of navicular AND spavin (another story) being managed if not cured by taking shoes off for a year or so.

It's the time you need to give up to help the horse, it could take months. Does anyone realistically have that time for thier horse? Or even the money to justify it?
 
tallyho! said:
Please do correct me if I am wrong, just a quick question about navicular:

Navicular disease often begins as an inflammation of the bursa between the deep digital flexor tendon and the navicular bone of the foot. In the horse, the navicular bone is located directly behind the coffin bone and is held in place by tendons and ligaments.

Lots of websites say remedial shoeing is the way forward.. why exactly and what kind?
Click to expand...

Navicular means a lot of different things to different people.

Generally speaking, I believe it is a term used to describe a breakdown of the deep tissues of the foot. Remedial shoeing for navicular syndrome (I think it is now more correct to use that term, as it is such a broad reaching term) involves supporting the heels, stabilising the foot, and taking the pressure off the DDFT and related tendons by raising the heels with wedges.

I think.

The trouble with remedial shoeing is that it doesn't allow the horse's foot to function naturally, and can sometimes make the problem worse as a result of further structural breakdown.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top