Is it because i didnt wear tweed?? :s

[ladyt25]

Why does everyone on this forum hate showing?

I don't hate it, I just think it's an extremely subjective discipline and, quite often it comes down to who you know and not actually how good you or your horse may be.

Plus, on numerous occasions (in classes I have been in and ones I have just watched) there seems to be no real logic as to why a particular horse has won. WFor example, when it is noted on the rules etc that a % of the marks are attributable to manners then why (and this is in a championship class) would a horse that can't stand still, rears and actually nearly flattens a judge, win over another who was on a par conformation and performance wise? Could it possibly have to do with the fact the rider was Lady so and so whose land the event was taking place on? Cynical, moi?!

I think that is the main problem, not to mention the amount of people who kick off when they haven't won/been placed and in addition the amount of time you have to stand around for in each class.....!

It's more of a beauty pageant I suppose whereas the likes of events such as showjumping and eventing are a lot more black and white (well, unless you're at one where a commentator isn't on the ball and fails to see poles fall down......!)

 

[conniegirl]

mithras, I hardly count 40+ in a class at county level low entries (especialy when it is £50 a class to enter at some shows).

OP, the photos realy are not helpful for judging conformation.

It could be anything but conformation, turnout and way of going are very important. Also If you showjumped round you would get a lower style mark which greatly influences it. The way a Worker should jump and a showjumper jumps are polar opposites. Yes you both have to leave the fences up but a worker should do all of the course at a good flowing hunting canter, no chipping in strides or taking out strides no tight corners, no rattling poles, thier shape in the air is judged as well.

If your horse has less than stellar conformation it would have been marked down. If it dishes or plaits (a lot od dressage/eventers do dish) it will be marked down massivly. blemishes are still taken into account splints etc are a sign of an underlying fault, scars are less penalised than in showing as they are "working" horses.

I dont understand the hatred on this board for showing, it does seem that anyone who dares to admit they show thier horses gets jumped on and told thier horses must be fat/they must be sleeping with the judge/its all a fix etc. When in reality what has happened is the commenter has had 1 bad experiance with a bad judge or has a serious case of sour grapes/green eyed monster. If you bothered to look round you would find that many many show horses also hunt, event, dressage, heck I know quite a few who also do PARAdressage.

 

[humblepie]

I occasionally judge WH and it wouldn't matter to me if a rider was wearing black, blue, hunting pink or tweed albeit that tweed is correct. I would judge on the style and way of going round the course, a lucky clear or a lovely round with an unfortunate pole down for example, way of going in the show or ride judge - does the horse look a pleasure to ride or hard work - conformation and true to typeness.

Last one I judged the winner stood out a mile as looking comfortable, beautifully schooled and real hunter type. Admittedly once I got down to the lower placings it was difficult but I used a score system and went with that.

The reason for your placing could be many - the judge didn't like greys (I had a judge this year say she didn't normally like fleabitten greys but made mine an exception!), there was some about the conformation the judge didn't like (and judges will vary in this), etc etc. It sounds like your horse went well so you had a good day. It goes like that in showing, some times you win and think how did that happen, others times you don't and again wonder why. It is all experience and at least it was local to you, not the other end of the country!

 

[Mithras]

mithras, I hardly count 40+ in a class at county level low entries (especialy when it is £50 a class to enter at some shows).

The ones I've been at have very few entries in quite a lot of classes, sometimes only 1 or 2, sometimes 6 or 7, and sometimes none and being cancelled. Admittedly the Workers specifically have always had large numbers.

But really OP, some judges in some local unaffiliated workers classes do speak a load of tosh. I overheard them telling a girl who had jumped a beautiful clear that her horse was too forwards - when it was exactly the sort of round you would want to see a worker too. The winner OTOH cat jumped and looked very hesitant but the jumps were small enough to get away with it. I next saw the winning combination at the county show level worker she had qualified for, and she was eliminated for 3 stops.

Theres certain judges you listen to carefully and who make really helpful observations you take on board. Don't always assume that you will be lucky enough to get one of those judges!

 

[conniegirl]

Mithras, depends what class you are watching.
The M&M's, coloureds and workers tend to have very large classes, the show ponies and hacks seem to be dwindling in numbers, the Hunter ponies can be hit and miss but the cob classes and the Hunter horses tend to be well supported (though not the same numbers as the M&M's)

 

[slormesher]

When in reality what has happened is the commenter has had 1 bad experiance with a bad judge or has a serious case of sour grapes/green eyed monster. If you bothered to look round you would find that many many show horses also hunt, event, dressage, heck I know quite a few who also do PARAdressage.

Like i KEEP saying i was not bothered about the placings i went to get my horse out for atmosphere purposes! ... i was just generally curious on how the classes were judged. i dont know much about showing but for my own peace of mind just wanted to know what things people get points deducted for. just through interest not resentment or jelousy of not being placed ...... plus i know my horse is amazing haha

 

[Gloi]

The best thing to do when you are placed badly in a class is to ask politely what you were marked down on and what you could do to improve. You don't have to agree with the answers but you will get some tips to improve for future classes or , as is sometimes the case, the judge is looking for something other than what your horse is like, you can choose to avoid that judge in future.

 

[Baggybreeches]

As a judge surely you are there to find the best combination of horse & rider & place them in order of merit. You should put aside anything you may know about the competitors. It should be a level playing field, neither favouring the experienced nor the inexperienced, as a judge you are there to judge performance..

This has happened to me when judging at local unaff shows, when somebody is blatantly over qualified for a class I will, before they start give them the option of entering a more appropriate class or running HC. As it states in most rulebooks that the judge's decision is final then I think it's only fair to give them the opportunity to change class. It is the judge's responsibility to ensure the rules are obeyed.

 

[shannonandtay]

its all down to judges preference. Daughter entered our Connemara in a local m&m class just for fun, we didn't expect to get anywhere as the judge is well known for her preference for welshies, but she got 5th out of 13 and was really pleased. Another judge who was there asked how we got on and when we told her she said that she would've placed him higher as she prefers connemaras and he is true to type. So just shows that each have their likes and dislikes.

 

[humblepie]

The Ponies UK score system (and the one I use) is 50 marks for jumping, 10 marks for style and manners whilst jumping, 30 for type and conformation, 10 for ride, so very little on the ride and a significant amount for type and conformation. From the jumping marks of 50 you deduct 10 for each knockdown, 15 for first refusal, 20 for second, then elimination. So if you have several clears, all jumping nice rounds, then conformation and type will be a big player.

 

[The wife]

Why does everyone on this forum hate showing?

I certainly don't! Live for the show season... I think it is because it is so subjective and (without wanting to sound horrible) a lot of people in the lower end/RC level think they're animals are better than everything else... *dons on tin hat rapidly*. There will be very few of us on this forum that show to a high level and accept that sometimes it just isn't our day, we down a glass of port, get on with the next day. The vast majority of people for starters who hate showing have probably had a bad experience at grass roots level and rather than listening and learning and accepting the critique have deemed its because of this, because of that etc when actually the other animals were just better.

From RC level experience of both watching, stewarding and judging I have found the following... Most are in the wrong class and a judge hasn't the heart to tell them or hasn't even noticed, most are incorrectly turned out, a lot are 'in an outline' which is false and too many have bad conformational faults. There is so much that people could learn from showing if they are willing to listen to advice given and ask questions. Not many people started out with a top class pony or horse and instead worked with what they had and learnt the art. Half of the battle of showing is knowing how to show. Get it right and you can make a mediocre animal look a million dollars, get it wrong and even a top class animal will be waaaaay down the line.

 

[windand rain]

I have always found that showing at local level is a lottery. I have three county show winning natives in hand who have stood top and bottom at local level. Once asked why when on a high from winning and going champion at a county show my pony was last in her class at local level to be told they didnt know what breed she was so couldnt judge whether she was a good one She was a highland. So many times local shows are judged by someones auntie so I wouldnt take too much notice
For the record judging a working hunter class should be on jumping clear in a forward and controlled fashion look comfortable enough to spend a day hunting and to have great conformation.
Eventing is just as subjective as showing in the dressage phase the only true objective horse sport is probably showjumping/x country as you either jump the fence or not as the case may be. Anything will be subjective if it depends on someone elses opinion
I love showing I show at all levels both with youngsters and now with ridden ponies
I take them locally because so do many other people who know what they are doing, for practice and experience usually for novice riders as the ponies tend to know the job inside out. The standard at local level can be very high
As to not knowing the classes I was amused to enter a mountain and moorland class at local level for pure bred natives that had coloured cobs,a hafflinger a fjord several mixed breed ponies and a lovely fell stallion in it
Needless to say the stallion won and the highland filly we took was second the rest were a mottly crew but at least the judge new a real m&m was

 

[tankgirl1]

Do judges usually have any qualifications at all? Not read the whole thread, but I was thinking about me and Boyo making our debut this year (Watch out Rio haha), and it just got me thinking. Or is it truly a case of not what you know but who you know?

 

[tankgirl1]

Do judges usually have any qualifications at all? Not read the whole thread, but I was thinking about me and Boyo making our debut this year (Watch out Rio haha), and it just got me thinking. Or is it truly a case of not what you know but who you know?

And I don't know much so Boyo and I will have fingers and hooves firmly crossed haha!

 

[windand rain]

Yes show judges do have to have qualifications to judge at qualifier level so PUK bsps etc but not at local level anyone with a pretty hat can do it if they are asked nicely

 

[Carrots&Mints]

I certainly don't! Live for the show season... I think it is because it is so subjective and (without wanting to sound horrible) a lot of people in the lower end/RC level think they're animals are better than everything else... *dons on tin hat rapidly*. There will be very few of us on this forum that show to a high level and accept that sometimes it just isn't our day, we down a glass of port, get on with the next day. The vast majority of people for starters who hate showing have probably had a bad experience at grass roots level and rather than listening and learning and accepting the critique have deemed its because of this, because of that etc when actually the other animals were just better.

From RC level experience of both watching, stewarding and judging I have found the following... Most are in the wrong class and a judge hasn't the heart to tell them or hasn't even noticed, most are incorrectly turned out, a lot are 'in an outline' which is false and too many have bad conformational faults. There is so much that people could learn from showing if they are willing to listen to advice given and ask questions. Not many people started out with a top class pony or horse and instead worked with what they had and learnt the art. Half of the battle of showing is knowing how to show. Get it right and you can make a mediocre animal look a million dollars, get it wrong and even a top class animal will be waaaaay down the line.

Oh good everyone i see a thread on here everyone slates showing! I also live for the showing season and have just written my diary for the HOYS and RI qualifiers (very busy season this season have 1 hairy and 1 SHP and 1 m&m workers)

Like you said half the time at riding club shows people are in the wrong class or the wrong turnout and then come on here and then slate the whole showing community.

I have learnt allot from going to rc shows an seeing what's wrong and what's right and having spent the last couple of seasons chasing tickets I've leant so much.

People shouldn't just give up because thy weren't placed... Always ask the judge on their opinion and what to improve and where you went wrong, improve these mistakes and get back on and go do another class and see where you get! After all it's about enjoying it and having fun and learning it's not about the red ribbons! And if you do get placed think of it as a bonus!

Peace out! X

 

[Carrots&Mints]

mithras, I hardly count 40+ in a class at county level low entries (especialy when it is £50 a class to enter at some shows).

OP, the photos realy are not helpful for judging conformation.

It could be anything but conformation, turnout and way of going are very important. Also If you showjumped round you would get a lower style mark which greatly influences it. The way a Worker should jump and a showjumper jumps are polar opposites. Yes you both have to leave the fences up but a worker should do all of the course at a good flowing hunting canter, no chipping in strides or taking out strides no tight corners, no rattling poles, thier shape in the air is judged as well.

If your horse has less than stellar conformation it would have been marked down. If it dishes or plaits (a lot od dressage/eventers do dish) it will be marked down massivly. blemishes are still taken into account splints etc are a sign of an underlying fault, scars are less penalised than in showing as they are "working" horses.

I dont understand the hatred on this board for showing, it does seem that anyone who dares to admit they show thier horses gets jumped on and told thier horses must be fat/they must be sleeping with the judge/its all a fix etc. When in reality what has happened is the commenter has had 1 bad experiance with a bad judge or has a serious case of sour grapes/green eyed monster. If you bothered to look round you would find that many many show horses also hunt, event, dressage, heck I know quite a few who also do PARAdressage.

Took the words straight out if my mouth!

 

[YorksG]

I can't see the pictures,but if a rider doesn't bother to find out the correct turnout,it is also likely that they haven't found out the other requirements for the class, such as the expected way of going, stamp of horse required etc. In a WH it is also possible that the local country is taken into account. Most WH classes have score sheets and most judges are happy to give feed back if asked politely.

 

[Pigeon]

The ones I've been at have very few entries in quite a lot of classes, sometimes only 1 or 2, sometimes 6 or 7, and sometimes none and being cancelled. Admittedly the Workers specifically have always had large numbers.

Yes, at our county show there were only 3 or 4 to every class apart from shetlands.

 

[Spider65]

I think your pony looks lovely and has a very neat jump. But even though it is difficult to see properly, she might not be a WH stamp. Try a riding horse class as she looks pretty. Most judges like workers to look like hunters! You will still need a tweed jacket though and a pretty browband .At any level if you make the effort with turnout you will present a better picture than someone who has got it wrong. Having said that always ask for feedback.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Do judges usually have any qualifications at all? Not read the whole thread, but I was thinking about me and Boyo making our debut this year (Watch out Rio haha), and it just got me thinking. Or is it truly a case of not what you know but who you know?

At affiliated shows yes they do, and depending on your area most local shows try to get panel judges where possible.

 

[conniegirl]

Carrots&mint and The Wife, its nice to know I'm not alone.

I'll have my splodgey SHP out hopefully doing some of the later RI & HOYS qualifiers, he had his first year under saddle last year so stuck to Local shows mainly with the odd Equifest or CHAPS qualifier. He is striking enough that even the bad judges have placed him quite well, I did however get one or 2 judges who seemed to know absolutly nothing and the judging was at least entertaining!
I'm also currently teaching him to jump so we might do a few WHP classes as well.

 

[asommerville]

I've asked for feedback before (if the judge has hung about in the class long enough) to have them look at me as if I'm daft or trying to pick a fight! I genuinely do enjoy showing and wanted to get better, so many judges though do a runner after a class! Best feedback ever was at the Royal highland in the side saddle class, we got a wee written feedback from the judge, perfect, but not possible at every show understandably

 

[khalswitz]

The feedback from workers can be an eye opener. I took a six year old Highland mare to a 60cm workers, as her first time jumping competitively, because it's more about the rhythm and there is no speed element. She had a refusal at a particularly scary fence, and a run out in the second part of the offset double, so of course we didn't place, but on this occasion the class was less than ten so the judge had everyone in for the ride section. He caught us afterwards and told me to go and read the feedback - turns out that she was the highest marked for conformation and the ride (very nice stamp of a Highland who has since been winning all over the place in Highland classes), and judge was emphatic that with practice and confidence she would be a very nice little worker. So check your feedback, as sometimes it can surprise you!

For the record, I love showing, but don't take it seriously. I have won classes on very nice animals that I've been holding my breath during the ride half expecting the judge to get ditched, and back in our early days we've come last, despite being on a nice horse, because we were in the wrong class for the type. Current horse hates showing though, so I am show-less this season we got asked to leave the ring on several occasions last year for bronking... despite being a very nice hunter type sad times. I need another Highland I think

 

[mandwhy]

The last very big localish show I went to I was just doing in hand, we just made it in time to the class, me red faced with my number half hanging off and a confused horse whose lead chain later turned out not to be clipped on :-/ we apologised profusely, then the next people came along who were apparently very well known as breeders and the judge said sorry you're too late now... The people kicked off and literally said 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?' and that they had elite mares don't you know. I mean honestly can you imagine those words ever coming out of your mouth in public? The judge said no and she didn't care for their attitude, they definitely weren't allowed in after that.

My elite mare and I came 9th and I was thrilled not to be last - I did get a rosette for my 20 pound class entry and probably wouldn't have if those people had been more polite!

 

[WelshD]

"Is it because I didn't wear tweed??" I don't know, but it's more than likely because your horse may not be a WH type, jumping in the way a WH is supposed to go. Showing is a bit of a Dark Art to those who dare to look in from other worlds........

I agree with this.

WH is taken very seriously by those who do it at a high level and I am sure there is a lot more to it than us average joes believe!

For your pony to be at the bottom of the line I would imagine that there was something more fundamental that was taken in to account other than the jacket

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Carrots&mint and The Wife, its nice to know I'm not alone.

I'll have my splodgey SHP out hopefully doing some of the later RI & HOYS qualifiers, he had his first year under saddle last year so stuck to Local shows mainly with the odd Equifest or CHAPS qualifier. He is striking enough that even the bad judges have placed him quite well, I did however get one or 2 judges who seemed to know absolutly nothing and the judging was at least entertaining!
I'm also currently teaching him to jump so we might do a few WHP classes as well.

What height section are you in and what's he called? Pm me were in the 133. We didn't get any tickets last year but only did a few hoys qualifications last year, seems like the women judges adore her and the men are not too keen, but it's ok, we just keep goif and trying! She's come on along way last season and started with the working hunters but under m&m's (she's full section b but doesn't look m&my for the riddens) late last season which she's really enjoyed and starting to love, qualified for bsps winter champs at Barton a few months ago! She's still abit novicey and over jumping but were working on it

 

[conniegirl]

I'm hoping to squish him into the 153's he has an annual height cert at under that so fingers crossed he hasnt grown since last year! (he has certainly filled out!)
My lad is still on the lunge over jumps he massivly over jumps but has miles and miles of scope and a beautiful shape in the air. I've got to take it slowly with him as he was injured as a youngster and fractured his pelvis so we have to be mindfull of how much pressure I am putting on it and need to build him up to it slowly.

 

[Honey08]

WH is pretty strange to judge if you do it properly, you're judging each section and adding up totals. Sometimes the horse that comes out top of the scores is not always what you would think when you see them all together at the end..

I have won/done v well at local level in a black jacket. My mare did really well at local level, but when we got to champs level in a big class she was a bit further down. All of the ones above her were over 17h while she is 16h with a little less bone, despite being a good WH type.

Showing is showing, some days you do well, others you don't and you can't always see why. Unless you actually ask, you will never really know.

 

[Funkyfilly024]

The last very big localish show I went to I was just doing in hand, we just made it in time to the class, me red faced with my number half hanging off and a confused horse whose lead chain later turned out not to be clipped on :-/ we apologised profusely, then the next people came along who were apparently very well known as breeders and the judge said sorry you're too late now... The people kicked off and literally said 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?' and that they had elite mares don't you know. I mean honestly can you imagine those words ever coming out of your mouth in public? The judge said no and she didn't care for their attitude, they definitely weren't allowed in after that.

My elite mare and I came 9th and I was thrilled not to be last - I did get a rosette for my 20 pound class entry and probably wouldn't have if those people had been more polite!

This annoys me massively, not done much in the way of shows but the ones I have gone to have been in the ring and wondering 'seriously, 10 mins late or more and they still get let in!!'

Also ditto the earlier poster re asking the judge for feedback politely, it's such a useful thing when you are starting out but a couple do look at you like your about to kick off, sad really that they must be used to that.