Is it just me? Re XC speed/pacing

[PorkChop]

I think it is widely recognised that the XC phase has become alot more technical with the addition of Intro/PN, ie PN now more akin to a novice years ago.

At the lower levels, why is it that I see lots of horses finishing the XC tired? I thought it was all about having a suitable pace according to the course and ground conditions. With so many more techinical fences where a proper boucy coffin canter is needed, (which imo is vastly underated) is it the fault of organisers wheeling tight times, and therefore encouraging riders to go on a wing and a prayer so that they make the time?

I know there are lots of horses and riders who ride beautifully timed rounds, well within thier horses fitness, but it does worry me slightly that maybe the less experienced seem pressurised to go faster than is safe.

There will come a day when everything goes well, ie good dressage, clear sj, and a confident fit horse, and that is the day you go out and push a little more. Or are alot of riders producing thier horses to sell, and therefore need a good BE record.

An observation really, or is it because I am Captain Slow

 

[Honey08]

I think you have to get used to how fast your horse needs to go to cover the ground at the miles per minute you need, then if you have a tricky fence that needs slowing down for you know that you have to go faster somewhere to make up for it (usuallly after the fences, or in any long stretches without jumps). I don't find courses harder than they used to be years ago really, but that may just be my memory!

 

[AandK]

I don't find courses harder than they used to be years ago really, but that may just be my memory!

i think they are these days, even in comparison with 4/5/6yrs ago.

e.g. i did the PN at Tweseldown in 2004 and 2005 and a lot of the fences that were in the PN are now in the BE90 (sunken road is one that springs to mind) the water was step in/out with a wide fence 2/3 strides after, last time i looked at the BE100 it was house, water, house, water, skinny! same goes with Munstead, i last did the PN there in 2006 and when i did the BE100 there on Sunday it seemed a bit beefier? (although they now have an alt to the trackhener much to my delight..)

on reflection though, i think i am getting wussier in my old age.. after coming back from a year off jumping (horse injury) 2'6" looked huge!! but i digress..

i think over the years the lower levels, BE90/100 and now BE80, have become more and more popular and i think some people just dont realise how fit a horse needs to be to do an ODE, esp the non-TB types.

 

[MagicMelon]

I do think people are pushed to go fast - fine at higher levels I guess (but even then IMO the time is still too tight!).

I think that at Intro & PN levels you get a lot more native breeds for example who do find it much tougher to make the time. I did two intro's with my Welsh Cob who really struggled with the time as he wasn't a natural galloper and he gave every fence so much air he got tired pretty quickly. He could easily have jumped the height PN but simply wasn't built for the speed so I never did one on him.

I struggled like mad to get near the time when I first moved up to novice, obviously over time you learn little tricks like pushing on immediately on landing etc. and now we make near the time (never within, but say 5 pens out) and I feel I'm riding too fast, its always a race to get round. I know speed has to come into it to a degree but I do think its a bit too tough at the lower levels.

If a horse is tired towards the end of a course IMO its not always because he's unfit, the ground has a lot to do with it. If its sticky for example, any horse will tire far quicker than usual - you just have to take it a bit slower.

 

[kerilli]

The courses are definitely more technically difficult than they used to be. Not bigger, but more technical.
e.g. the first fence I jumped in water was at Intermediate, after a few years of doing Novices. There was never a fence in water at Novice. (there were no levels below that, back then.) Now you'll see a fence in water at BE100. Maybe at Intro as well, I don't know.
ditto, the first log drop into water (i.e. not just a step down) I encountered was at Intermediate. You'll see that at BE100 too.
Skinnies were almost unheard of. There would be one or two corners on a course and that would be it, the rest would be lovely wide fences you could keep coming to, usually.
I could go on and on...
also
I think a lot of riders at the lower levels just do not get their horses (and/or perhaps themselves) fit enough.
A horse should not finished tired after a 5 min (or less) xc run IF it has been fittened up properly and ridden reasonably, imho. They don't need to go to the gallops for anything up to Novice imho, but they do need to have done 'interval training' of some kind while schooling, jumping, hacking, whatever, and to have had the odd sprint.
We see a lot more riding club and common types at the lower levels too, of course there's a place for them in the sport BUT it must be borne in mind that their natural cruising speed at, say, hand gallop will be waaay slower than a t.b. or similar. This makes an enormous difference. I easily got the time at BE100 with the handbrake on, on my t.b. mare. On a 3/4 bred with no gallop, I had to ride clever lines and get a wiggle on.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I also think at the lower levels you see a wider range of breeds. TBs can cope very well with the faster work but some other types or crosses may appear more tired afterwards, and maybe need more fittening in order to cope with it?...

 

[JennBags]

I think you have to get used to how fast your horse needs to go to cover the ground at the miles per minute you need

Miles per minute?....I don't think we'll ever make the time

 

[Spinal Tap]

Different courses seem to measure the time differently...or something The last 2 BE90s I did last year were at Brooksby and Bishop Burton. I felt like I was pushing more at BB, and we don't hang about riding wide lines - can't afford to on a hairy cob! However at Brooksby we were over 30 secs inside the time, whereas at BB we was about 0.2 secs inside. If people know that a venue is one of those 'tight time' courses they will push harder and perhaps horses will finish tired. That said, I don't think the horse I compete finishes particularly tired after a BE90, he probably looks like he's huffing & puffing a bit compared to the TBs but finishes full of running (he is prone to taking a stride out at the last couple of jumps) and recovers his breath very quickly when I walk him round

 

[angelish]

hi
i event a more "common" type at 90 and i have only been in the time once this year ,he doe's waste a bit of time ing at the jumps esp water
but i do find that i have to go as fast as i can to get any were near the time , he doe's do interval training at the beach twice a week before i start ,then once in middle of week and a comp at weekends
as i do appreciate he has to be fitter than a TB because he is not a natural galloper

i have found as he has become more experienced he is getting faster as he's not looking around so much
iv'e not seen anyone going dangerously fast eventing although have seen horses finish looking very tiered at the start of the season (at least 4 were TB's )
but i do find local hunter trials very scary to watch ,because around here it is fastest time wins and some inexperienced people seem to think that means go full pelt without taking a pull at all

 

[Spinal Tap]

but i do find local hunter trials very scary to watch ,because around here it is fastest time wins and some inexperienced people seem to think that means go full pelt without taking a pull at all

I agree, some of the competitors are nuts Usually around here it's fastest around a timed section rather than the whole course, but going round solid jumps so fast that the horse is cornering one one leg virtually has never been something that appeals greatly to me. That's my excuse for never coming placed anyway & I'm sticking to it

 

[angelish]

lol

yes they are a bit mad ,i must admit to being this mad when i was a lot younger and didn't know any better (crazy pony no breaks)
but at least i had the sense to retire her rather than take her to a higher level

i do think the organisers have a lot to answer for at these events as they really do encourage people to ride dangerously
i have seen horses broken more than once and some very nasty accidents

its amasing the risks some people go to for a red rossette

 

[meardsall_millie]

With regard to the unaffiliated 'fastest time' competitions - I wholeheartedly agree - there are some complete nutters who put themselves and their horses at risk.

There is a difficulty with regard to BE though. Yes courses are more technical and are 'built bigger' (they certainly look more substantial than they used to), and yes the wheeling can sometimes be questionable . However, it is the responsibility of each rider to ride according to the conditions, the ability of themselves and their horse, and their fitness levels.

The speeds have been set for a 'typical' event horse (whatever that is but I suspect something with a reasonable amount of blood). The fact that more common types (no disrespect meant) are now taking part does not mean that times will be, or should be, slowed down to make allowances for them. Intelligent riding, tighter lines and better dressage and SJ can still see those horses up there in the higher placings, without hooleying around the XC like a lunatic.

I don't think we'll ever get away from the fact that the lower levels are seen as a training ground for potential superstars to move up through the ranks - however much it's argued that the Grassroots riders keep the whole sport going.......

 

[BeckyX]

I only ever do unaff PC XC, my mare has a natrally good pace so i do okay xc, i particularly liked the last ODE as you got faults for being to fast and for not walking over a bridge, but could go as slow as you liked, my pony is speedy but we didnt get faults

But yes i do agree that xc times etc are a bit mad!

 

[AutumnRose]

As someone who events a non-event type (a bog horse actually ) this is interesting. He has only just started to get near the time as he gets more confident. I am sure he is fast enough for intro and PN eventually but it will come with experience and a bit of clever riding with lines etc. But to me that is all part of the challenge, with every horse you have certain areas which are weaknesses, B's is and will always be time.

I also know i'm not very good at riding fast, i used to have a very blood mare who was very fast but i would often get faults on her too. I have improved my ability to ride in a faster rhythm since then though. Plus she had a bloody dirty stop that used to put me off going very fast but i digress....

B does not gallop naturally as has had to be taught, he feels faster than he is because he has a bouncy action. I also have to think about his fitness and his workload in order to be fit enough. WIth my mare you'd blink and she was fit enough! However, i think B's fitness is more than sufficient for his level. At Eridge this year (very hilly course), on a very hot day, he finished in one of the fastest times and looking fresher than most up the big hill to the finish.

He's doing his fist PN in 3 weeks. I know i wont be near the time until he's done a few a begins to be established at the level but that's the price i pay for eventing a non-tb. He has many other qualities that make up for his lack of blood. I certainly don't think the times should be slower.

I've rarely seen dangerous speeds xc at BE....although i have to say that when i jumped judged at Borde Hill the junior novice riders scared the life out of me.....terrifyingly fast!

 

[PorkChop]

All worthwhile comments, thank you. I wasn't suggesting that the speed required be reduced as such, I completely agree that a confident and fit 'bog standard' horse should be able to make the time at intro and pre-novice.

Just don't like watching honest horses being fired through combinations in an attempt to make the time, and some horses finishing really tired, blowing and heavily sweating because they have been asked to go faster than thier fitness allows (and then being ridden back to lorry park, a particular bugbear of mine (preparing to be shot down in flames!)) :

 

[Spinal Tap]

All worthwhile comments, thank you. I wasn't suggesting that the speed required be reduced as such, I completely agree that a confident and fit 'bog standard' horse should be able to make the time at intro and pre-novice.

Just don't like watching honest horses being fired through combinations in an attempt to make the time, and some horses finishing really tired, blowing and heavily sweating because they have been asked to go faster than thier fitness allows (and then being ridden back to lorry park, a particular bugbear of mine (preparing to be shot down in flames!)) :

I did a course walk with an accredited trainer before one of my 1st Intros & she said to let the horse slow in his own time after they finish with my weight off his back & ride back to the lorry park feeling for any hint of soreness. Then get off, remove tack/boots & walk them in hand for at least 20 mins. I might have misheard though

 

[ljslaughter]

Its alot down to the breed,and even when the heavier breeds are as fit as they can be,its still out the question when it come to going faster. Ive always had fast wizzy TB types and made time BE without having to push after every fence,infact use to potter round and expecting to be going too fast(never was). Now having an ID type??hes very fit(well was when i last evented,never finished puffing and cud have gone round twice,easily)and i dont think we once made thetime,it seemed imposs and very annoying. I feel time is too tight at the lower level(BE 90&100),scope is norm not a prob but the time is !!! Pushing him/them out of their natural stride will cause accidents!! If i didnt know from my own experience in having a more native breed,then i wud never have said time was a prob!!! So YES,i feel lower level BE shud have time adjusted!!!