Is it ok to keep horse this way?

If a horse is about to do a spell of hard work, as in....carry someone around for a couple of hours, do you think it will do it good having a belly full of water and hay in there?

If the horse hasn't had a drink coz he didn't want one for a while, then has a bloody good gut-full, then he has to go out on a ride, and trots and canters, and who knows....a gallop....what is that belly full of water going to do to it?

I am sure the farmer regulates the water, for the welfare of the horses.
 
MagicMelon said:
Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal. Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves! How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing. They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally. Farmer should be shot.
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Was the horse invented for the human to ride it?

Nowt natural there, if you look at it that way.....
 
A few points -
Stalls do allow horses to lie down.
Tethering by the neck, if done properly is better than a headcollar - especially when there is a little tension on the rope, as the head skin is quite thin and prone to rubs compared to the neck.
Water - horses do not naturally drink small amounts of water throughout the day - they tend to only drink once or twice a day.
N :D
 
Whilst I don't have a problem with horses being stood tied in stalls in between lessons (although I too would prefer that there is water there for them should they want it, esp on hot days) I too aren't keen on them spending the majority of their time like that in winter. (I'm a huge advocate of as much turnout as possible) As for the no bedding issue, tbh rs where I used to be didn't use bedding in their loose boxes where rs were put between lessons, just skipped out and swept wee away daily (tbh these standing stalls sound like they have much better drainage than the boxes used there!) they were only ever in for a few hours though and they didn't give hay to the rs horses whilst they were in, they did have constant access to water though.
 
I'm on the fence. Yes I've seen many horses kept this way - but not for a long time! Also the horses were only in during the day OR night, and the overnight horses had deep straw beds and did happily lie down. No real issues with this type of arrangement although I do much prefer 24/7 t/o - even in the wind and rain :p Don't think its an acceptable long term solution 24/7 though - down right cruel actually. Sounds like a jail sentence......
 
MagicMelon said:
Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal. Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves! How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing. They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally. Farmer should be shot.
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I posted this topic because I'm a bit concerned if this way of keeping horses is okay for them, but I really think this reply is extreme. Not only do they look fit and well, as you admit, but I've seen them coming in from the field. The farmer calls them and they come cantering in from their lush field, kicking their heels and playing. Then they walk straight into their stalls. You could argue they know no better, but they don't look depressed to me.

I don't believe the RSPCA would be interested, and I won't be shooting anyone, thanks.
 
I think that there is some research somewhere to show that horses who are in tie stalls actually have less stereotypical behaviour problems than those kept in loose boxes, presumably because they are in close proximity with the neighbouring horses and you could argue that it can actually therefore be more 'natural' for them than being confined in a loose box.

"Isolation

Horses are a gregarious species and social isolation can have profound effects on many aspects of their behaviour. If people are kept in solitary confinement or are otherwise severely frustrated they may also show stereotypies (Broom and Kennedy 1993). In confinement in stalls, some sows are very inactive and unresponsive where as others show high levels of stereotypies and there are differences in their brain opioid receptor densities as a consequence (Broom 1987, Zanella et al 1992). Cribbing occurs less frequently in horses kept in tie stalls than it does in horses kept in box stalls, suggesting that isolation rather than confinement is the major contributing factor in the cause of cribbing (Miller 1996)."
 
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When I was a child, that's how it was. In summer and winter at my RS, the ponies lived out for most of the time, but came in at lunchtime for their afternoon lessons. No hay, water or bedding in the stalls - but they were rarely in there for more than an hour or so at a time. Horses naturally drink twice a day or so - a few hours without access isn't an issue.

Anything 'delicate' came in during the winter and had bedding, haynet and either water bucket or led out twice a day to the yard water trough.

They seemed happy, bright, cheerful with gleaming coats and illness was rare. Not saying it's the 'best' way to keep them at all, but they seemed to do fine on it.
 
I'd just like to know how tethering round the neck is "abhorent and extremely dangerous"?
It is generally more comfortable for the horse and leaves the head free. Nothing dangerous about it at all if it is done properly.

Not sure why some people can be up in arms about standing stalls yet think loose boxes are perfectly fine either. Far better a stall for short periods with close company, than stuck in a box 24/7 with an hours' exercise doing repetitive activities in the school. As long as they are bedded and given hay and water in winter then I don't see the problem really.
 
As I said
Our horses are often stalled in the winter
They show know vices, work well and look fit and well.
In the summer When They are out they have hay and water but no bedding
The reason for no bedding is that we tried them with it and They Would lay down with their tack on! When they are stalled at night they are mucked out daily and the beds are left up to dry.
 
i think all horses should have access to water, well obviously not immediately before a race etc, because they exist on highly fibrous food and need adequate quantities, my horses drink day and night as and when needed, the amount they take and frequency varies greatly, sudden rises in temperature can double their intake.

i am certain that leaving horses standing on concrete amounts to cruelty, i feel we should know better today, loose boxes where they can contact with next horse is better than stalling, it allows movement, freedom to lie down or roll, and an exterior view of whats going on.
 
MagicMelon said:
How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing. They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally. Farmer should be shot.
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YEAH! Let's shoot everyone who brings a horse into a stable for any period of time, whose horse doesn't have 24 hour access to suitable forage, (actually its more like 12-18 hours grazing) and let's prosecute anyone who feeds cereals or animal byproducts because that's not what they are designed (evolved) to eat. I tell you what, I'll take the Spanish Riding School, and you take Racing. Then we'll tackle the remaining 90% of the horse owning population together.

...

No, its not natural. But neither is the way most horses are kept, to a greater or lesser degree.

OP, whether or not this yard's winter regime is unacceptable in terms of animal welfare is debatable, and will depend on things like if they are able to lie down, how much they get out of their stalls, and what and how much they are fed, and how often they are watered. Perhaps you could come back and give us an update once you know that, then we'll be able to advise if it warrants contacting a welfare body.
 
whats wrong with them? I can still remember stalls like this with horses wearing jute rugs over gold yellow and red rugs and looking quite happy and content.
Magic Melon, a lot of cattle are kept loose in barns but with **** up to their knees and their rumps covered in dried lumps of the stuff. Can't see anyone getting upset about them:( I think its time to stop treating horses as if they are made of crystal. TBH, I cant remember horses having so many problems (mental) as they do now so something tells me that we are causing the problems due to the way we are treating them . Just a thought.
I love this pic :) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ben_salter/5179190748
 
MagicMelon said:
Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal. Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves! How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing. They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally. Farmer should be shot.
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Hmmmmm :/ ... I don't really understand why you would say any of that. Like previously posted I worked in a riding school only a few years ago and this was how they were kept (and still are to what I believe) and they were perfectly happy. Farmer should be shot? No not at all. Please do not be so snobby about an issue like this just because the horses do not stand in a loose box. Enjoy that ride you did the other day? Oh wait no, that's not natural is it? So guessing you haven't ridden.
 
OP - in my opinion, no it is not.

Although the summer routine sounds o.k, keeping them stalled 24/7 in winter in my opinion is unacceptable, especially if they do not have bedding, free access to hay and water.

I'm another one who is surprised how may people think this is acceptable - just because it was the norm in the past does not mean it's o.k today. Times have moved on and we know alot more about our equine friends now...ulcers etc.

However, my experience of most riding schools is similar in that the care is often lacking. Unfortunately their horses are usually seen as a commodity.

I must add - I don't agree in keeping any animal in such a confined space all day and night and some of us do care about the cows knee deep in s**t.
 
LouandBee said:
However, my experience of most riding schools is similar in that the care is often lacking. Unfortunately their horses are usually seen as a commodity.
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Quite the opposite. Riding school horses are one of the most important parts, no horse, no lessons, no money. It is acceptable, and to be honest I bet the farmers horses are treated a hell of a lot better then those in loose boxes constantly.
 
Monkers said:
Tethering by the neck is abhorrant and extremely dangerous.

.
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Isn't that what the Welfare chappies recommend for tethered horses though?

As for this particular case, how can this person be criticised when we really don't know all the facts?

I know horses that are kept outside all winter, no shelters, no grass and often standing on sheet ice...does that also sound dreadful, or cruel?
 
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I used to run a herd of youngsters in about 30 acres of grass. There was one water trough at the top of the field. The horses came up twice a day to drink regular as clockwork, regardless of the weather.
 
I'm not sure its fair to tar all riding schools with the same brush. I would say that our horses are cared for better than most private homes
They Have qualified staff caring for them daily and Have at least two, if not more, welfare inspections each year. They have quality hay and feed. Live in or out to suit, Dentist and sports massage and all their needs answered which is more than They would get in some private homes. Of course They Are looked after, without the horses There are no riding schools. Without the riding schools there Will be ni where for people to learn to ride!
 
just because 'things have moved on' as someone said, doesn't automatically mean it is 'better'. Stable vices, ulcers and co were pretty rare when I was a child and horses were worked. Today, most equines do an hour in the school or hack and are thought to have 'worked'. A few years back horses/ponies hacked to the show, did the classes entered for (sometimes 4 plus a Chase me Charlie) and hacked home again. Horses were also hacked to the meet, hunted all day and hacked home in the dark. Todays horses dont know what work is! I suppose that would be called overworking these days !
 
DragonSlayer said:
If a horse is about to do a spell of hard work, as in....carry someone around for a couple of hours, do you think it will do it good having a belly full of water and hay in there?

If the horse hasn't had a drink coz he didn't want one for a while, then has a bloody good gut-full, then he has to go out on a ride, and trots and canters, and who knows....a gallop....what is that belly full of water going to do to it?

I am sure the farmer regulates the water, for the welfare of the horses.
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Horses are not like people. It is better for them to have a bellyful of forage when they work. Not hard feed or VERY lush grass though, I would give a break of one hour if they are stuffed, but it is BAD for horses not to have any fibre in their bellies when they are worked. It causes stomach acid to splash about and ulcers to form.
 
Wagtail said:
Horses are not like people. It is better for them to have a bellyful of forage when they work. Not hard feed or VERY lush grass though, I would give a break of one hour if they are stuffed, but it is BAD for horses not to have any fibre in their bellies when they are worked. It causes stomach acid to splash about and ulcers to form.
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...and working a horse fast on a belly full of water can cause colic. Seen it happen. THAT is what I am refering to, did the OP not say the horses get hay periodically? So there is SOMETHING in there..it seems to me, the farmer is not wanting to risk something like colic, and if his horses seems happy and healthy, then maybe his system is working?
 
DragonSlayer said:
...and working a horse fast on a belly full of water can cause colic. Seen it happen. THAT is what I am refering to, did the OP not say the horses get hay periodically? So there is SOMETHING in there..it seems to me, the farmer is not wanting to risk something like colic, and if his horses seems happy and healthy, then maybe his system is working?
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That's true. Just before a ride sets off, the horses are always given a little hay and allowed a few minutes to eat it before being tacked up. I understand why now.
 
MagicMelon said:
How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing. They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night.
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Surely it's completely "unnatural" for prey animals to live in fields of lush grass with no preditors to hunt them? Let alone having tack and human beings on them!
 
I once went on a riding holiday to York when I was a lot younger - the horses there were stalled. I dont remember any seeming unhappy and all were up to weight. The horses were turned out at night.
I have a mare who hates to be in her stable - box walks, weaves, kicks even after five minutes inside. Yet tie up up outside her stable and she is calm and happy, even though she can't move as much. She would stand there for hours if necessary......so it makes me think that she would actually be more suited to a stall environment than a stable.
 
My first riding school was an inner city one. Many of the horses were in stalls, all had bedding, and like the OP access to water several times a day (I remember going round with buckets!). They were turned 'out' in the indoor school at night (very limited paddocks due to location) with hay. All of them were extremely content whereas all the ones in the loose boxes were the ones with the stable vices and seemed less happy about life.
 
Fairynuff said:
whats wrong with them? I can still remember stalls like this with horses wearing jute rugs over gold yellow and red rugs and looking quite happy and content.
Magic Melon, a lot of cattle are kept loose in barns but with **** up to their knees and their rumps covered in dried lumps of the stuff. Can't see anyone getting upset about them:( I think its time to stop treating horses as if they are made of crystal. TBH, I cant remember horses having so many problems (mental) as they do now so something tells me that we are causing the problems due to the way we are treating them . Just a thought.
I love this pic :) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ben_salter/5179190748
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I have to agree with this.

I'm another who remembers RS ponies kept in stalls in the 60s - although I do think that the majority of them lived out during the week all year round. the ponies were healthy and happy.
The 'My Little Pony' culture is very much to the detriment of horse health and well-being IMO.
 
is it an ideal system? maybe not-not many are. sounds preferable to me than keeping fat ponies half starved in tiny paddocks because they don't get enough exercise and most other permutations of what's 'better' these days.
 
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